SPEAKER_02 0:00

On this episode, if you've ever struggled with sleep, whether it's getting to sleep or waking up from sleep or just not getting enough sleep, you know how much it can negatively affect your health and really your entire life. Now, what if I told you there is a way to recover from bad sleep and help to get quality sleep by just simply lying down and listening to a recording? Yes, that's how simple it could be. And the technique is called yoga nidra. Yoga nidra or yogic sleep is a unique form of meditation. It's different from a yoga practice or seated meditation because you simply lay on your back and allow the teacher to fully guide you. You withdraw from all your senses except for listening. And this makes it very comfortable and accessible to anyone. In a systematic progression, the teacher talks you through a script that brings your awareness from your surroundings to your breath and then body. During a body scan, the teacher will say a body part and instruct you to bring your awareness to it and then quickly away from it. After the body scan, you're invited to explore your own mind and subconscious through drawing on memories and experiences during a series of visualizations. After the practice, you shift your awareness back to the body and breath before finally returning to your external surroundings. According to a research review published in the International Journal of Yoga Therapy, Yoga Nidra, based on observing an experienced practitioner, an individual demonstrates all the signs of sleep, including deep sleep, indicated by delta brain waves, and associated with the deepest levels of relaxation and restoration, while simultaneously remaining fully conscious. My guest today is Dr. Kemene Desai, an internationally recognized authority on Yoga Nidra and yogic psychology. She joins me to explain what exactly Yoga Nidra is, how it works, the science-backed benefits of Yoga Nidra, and the underlying philosophy behind it. I'm Jake Panasevich, and this is the Yoga with Jake podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

You too. Can you hear me okay?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

I could hear you great. Yeah. Could you hear me okay?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Excellent. Thanks for for taking the time to chat with me today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

I'm doing really well.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

You know, you're you're relatively new to me. Uh, thanks to our friend Ryan Swab for referring me to you. You've come highly recommended by him. And and I was curious if you could tell me just a little bit about yourself, your background, and and what you're currently up to, how you got interested in in Yoga Nidra and Yogic psychology.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Absolutely. So I actually grew up as the daughter of a yoga master. Um, Ryan has talked about this guru that he met in the in the forest in Salt Springs, Florida. That's my dad. And he was one of the yogis who came over from India back in the 60s and really helped pioneer what has become yoga, popularized yoga here in the West. So he was one of the people who helped do that. Um, and in addition to that, I also have a PhD in psychology and really see the um the ways that these two are contributing to each other. Yoga and psychology have so much to offer to our mental and physical well-being together. Um, so that's really become my point of study. And for the last 35 years, this is what I've been doing is helping people master the inner dimension of their lives. So I actually started out um studying diplomacy, wanted to be a diplomat, found myself getting disillusioned because peace is not about peace, it's about politics, is what I learned. And that's when I actually started picking up Yoga Nidra and other supportive practices because I found myself getting depressed and disillusioned and couldn't sleep, anxiety, all these kinds of things. And that's when I picked up the practices that I got from my dad. And people in my apartment building started asking me to help them with uh their anxiety, their sleep problems. And that's really when I decided, well, Yoga Nidra is the thing that really helps create peace from the inside out. And so I think of myself as a diplomat still in a way, but of inner peace.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

That's so interesting. Okay, so now currently, do you see patients as a psychologist and interweave the Yoga Nidra component into your practice? Or is it vice versa? Are you primarily teaching Yoga Nidra and it's more inspired by your psychology background?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

It's more the second. You know, I did have a time and I occasionally see clients, but most of the time I'm training other people, including psychologists, to bring practices like Yoga Nidra into the work that they do. Um, because let's face it, a lot of what we're facing is anxiety, insomnia, you know, overstress, all of these things are are creating a cascade effect on our physical and emotional health.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Okay, excellent. And what is Yoga Nidra for folks just tuning into this? And I was wondering if you could just explain it. I I I love it. I'd say game changer, a lifesaver for me. And I think it's caught on a little bit. Um, but for folks who don't know, when they hear Yoga Nidra, could you what would you how would you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Absolutely. So Yoga Nidra is basically meditation made easy. And so usually when people are practicing, trying to practice meditation, they're struggling with their thoughts. But in Yoga Nidra, you're actually using the biology of sleep to enter a space between waking and sleeping. And in this zone, just like before you fall asleep, your thoughts naturally move further away from you. And you're kind of hovering in an in-between space where thoughts might be there, but you're not engaging in your thoughts. So you're basically harnessing the biology of what your body already knows how to do, which is fall asleep. And that's what a Yoga Nidra does. So you're not sitting up, you're lying down. We remove the disturbances in the body, the distractions in the body, and we guide you through a series of breath, body, and awareness techniques that really simulate the process of going down into the sleep state. And actually, what's interesting is that in Yoga Nidra, we define it as the conscious sleep. So you're going into a deep sleep state of relaxation, similar to sleep, and yet you are gently aware at the same time. And what's interesting is that the science is starting to show this.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah, it's I'm always curious. I've heard several different claims. I've had a good friend now who's uh Yoga Nidra researcher, but in your opinion, are you finding states of sleep during Yoga Nidra? Or is it this dream state where you find the benefits of sleep? Or how would you um describe it? I've heard some folks bring up benefits of, hey, if you're struggling with sleep or insomnia, this could be a godsend. And I I wholeheartedly believe that from personal experience, that's kind of anecdotal. But I'm curious, what is going on? Are we are we sleeping during during Yoga Nidra? Are we in this kind of in-between dream state? Or or what what's going on there?

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Well, it's kind of an entirely unique state. So there's a study that was done, I think it was 2021 or 2022, that basically shows that we are in a state of waking sleep, which is really how Yoga Nidra is defined. So in this study, what they found was that people were scored as being awake, actually, but there were parts of the brain, central parts of the brain, that were actually showing deep sleep, slow wave activity, as if you were in deep sleep at the same time. So in Yoga Nidra, actually, you are in deep sleep, uh, either in light sleep, it's like stable sleep, or in deep sleep, and you are gently awake at the same time. So it is a unique state. The carryover is that it will increase. We were just talking about sleep, it's actually gonna increase what's called N2 and N3 sleep, the gateway into deep sleep and deep sleep itself in the sleep periods that follow your practice of Yoga Nidra. So if you are struggling with falling asleep, having that good deep restorative sleep, nidra is fantastic because it's gonna increase that activity at night.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Interesting. It's it's so fascinating. And so for folks who are new to Yoga Nidra or first time hearing this, oftentimes folks hear a meditation, they're the idea is you're not oh, I'm not supposed to be drifting off or falling asleep. But is this are you meant to allow yourself to deeply relax? And if you happen to find these states of early stages of sleep or deep sleep, even that's okay with Yoga Nidra then.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

That's exactly right. So it kind of has a dual purpose. And with Yoga Nidra, what you first want to do is restore your body. And once your body gets the rest and restoration that it needs, if you practice Yoga Nidra and you fall asleep, that's great because you're filling up your battery. And once your battery is filled, you will naturally keep that level of gentle awareness that we're talking about. It's gonna happen all by itself. And that's one of the things I love about Yoga Nidra is that you don't have to struggle to meditate or struggle to stay awake. You're really just lying down, it's guided. You listen, you let your body do what it does, and it's gonna give you all kinds of incredible restorative benefits.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yeah, I took my first yoga teacher training back in 2007, and not to bash on the training, but we were meant to sit and meditate for this one module for half an hour. And you know, at that point, I was even more muscle bound and and tight and sitting comfortably, I was like, where's the furniture? Because after just 10 minutes, comedy, I was my feet were numb. And I and the response I was given uh to that was be still, you know, don't respond to react to that. And I'll tell you what, I couldn't walk after I had to crawl till the blood flow went back into my feet. And so I think people get discouraged when they go to do a quintessential seated type of meditation. I think I work with a lot of guys, and I'm always telling them at least prop up the beginning of your yoga practice if your feet are, if your knees are above your hips, or just extend out if if if it's more comfortable, it's okay. It sounds like Yoga Nidra is a really great access point for those who will get physically uncomfortable even and then unable to mentally get the benefits because just seated sometimes is the barrier, at least for me, you know, and this permission to lay down is is just really sweet uh to begin with. I feel like there's a good entry point.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Absolutely. It just removes the barriers. And your story is not unique, especially among men. And it's such a shame because there's so many restorative mental health, physical health, brain benefits to get from meditation and yoga nidra. And yet people struggle with it so much they never get there. And so this just removes all of that. You're lying down, you're guided through, you don't even have to try to observe your thoughts. You're entering a state where you're that observation of thoughts or the distance between you and your thoughts happens all by itself. And what people find is they enter very deep states of meditation or what you might call relaxation very quickly and very easily from the first time they practice, rather than struggling for years in a sitting position trying to get to some deep state that they've heard about.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah, it's so great. I was wondering if you could tell me maybe some of the the mental or benefits be and or brain benefits around Yoga Nidra. Like what do we know involving the the mental or brain benefits of of Yoga Nidra?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, so Yoga Nidra is excellent for inducing a parasympathetic relaxation response. And we think, oh, well, that's not important, but stress is a big driver of anxiety, depression, insomnia, the three big ones that we experience, it's stress that's the driver. And so essentially what we are doing in Yoga Nidra is we are creating an intense parasympathetic experience. And it is intense. It will, if you allow yourself to just listen and be guided, it will take you down to this place where you're going into a deep rest and digestive state. And think of it as strengthening this parasympathetic muscle. Um, because it we all exercise, I think most of us, the fight or flight every day, you know, be on top of it, don't forget this, do that. But we are not equally exercising our ability to train the nervous system to calm down at will. And this is what Yoga Nidra does. So when we are in fight or flight too long, that is what starts to put us in the state where we've got too much cortisol in the system, we don't have enough GABA, calming agents where our muscles are typically tight all the time. We're always in alert mode, and this starts to create erasing thoughts. And if we start to live there too long, it starts to live lead towards depression and even dementia and Alzheimer's if too long. So this simple practice actually works at the root cause, which is at the foundation of many of these diseases of the mind. And by exercising this parasympathetic response, it's like working at the root cause. You know, we could work at the leaves of a plant and deal with all these symptoms individually, or we could work at the one root cause, which is really a weak parasympathetic response, a weak rest and digest response. Deal with that, strengthen your ability to create calm at will, and everything begins to erode. All of these symptoms begin to erode simultaneously.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

I love that. I um I definitely feel as though, especially moments, stages of life where I've struggled with sleep, that this has been the one thing that's kept me sane. Is that essentially where the you bring up the parasympathetic response? Is that what's going on there? Are these like stages of of deep rest? Um, are they the main mechanism that's that's causing this parasympathetic response that's also having this cascade effect? Is or what's what's the mechanism? Do we know um what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

There are a couple of things. So one is the stress that we're talking about releases cortisol. And high cortisol is actually going to block your body from going down into these deep stages of sleep, where you get that restoration, where serotonin is released, where dopamine is released. That gives you motivation, contentment of feeling good. But if you're stuck in with too much high cortisol, your body can't get down there to release the hormones, the neurotransmitters that it needs to feel good, right? And to get into sleep. So cortisol kind of acts as a it blocks the gateway into delta brainwave sleep, which is really what we want, that deep restorative sleep. So that's one. The other is that the practice of Yoga Nidra actually naturally boosts that stable light sleep and the deep sleep. So it's actually going to increase the quality of your sleep. You're gonna have you're gonna wake up less at night. This is all studied, this is all shown. Um, you wake up less at night, um, your objective sleep is improved, you have increased delta wave activity at night. And this is really important because starting from our 30s, even, the amount of delta brainwave sleep that we get is starts to get drastically reduced. And we spend more time in that light sleep where we're like we wake up and we're disturbed by sounds, we hear something and we're like, now I can't get back to sleep. Whereas when we were young, we didn't we were dead to the world, we didn't hear a thing. So the Yoga Nindra actually is boosting that within the body. And this is what really these two things, the increase in delta brainwave sleep at night, um, combined with a reduction of cortisol, this makes it really and reduction of rumination thinking. So a lot of us before we go to sleep, we're thinking about the day. We have the racing thoughts, we're chewing on what happened during the day, and that's keeping us from falling asleep. So there's another study that showed that the more you practice Yoga Nidra, it actually reduces the connectivity with something called the default mode network. And that is what has us kind of rehashing the day, going through things, just thinking randomly about things. But when you practice Yoga Nidra, you're better able to disconnect from that. And the more you practice, the more you're able to let go of your thoughts. This is based on fMRI studying and imaging. It's really interesting stuff.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

That's so great. And so it is in a way a skill set, a practice that over time you actually do develop. Is it, would you say unconsciously, even though it's an intentional effort, but it's kind of this is kind of working on you. There's something sweet about this practice where it just feels as if it's I don't want I don't want to come back to like it doesn't feel like a heavy lift. Like you could, you know, show just showing up. It really does seem to be the the biggest, you know, lift of this, you know. Is that the case?

SPEAKER_00 19:57

That is absolutely the case. And that's what I love about it. And I think that that's why people are skeptical in a way, because they're like, well, it can't be that easy, you know, it's gotta be effortful, it's gotta be hard. But that's actually exactly it. If you can lie down, you know, just give yourself 20 minutes, take it out of your scrolling time, your social media time, time that we we already end up wasting, and lie down, you know, replace your nap and do a yoga nidra instead. And you're gonna have a beautiful um regeneration of your mind. It's also been shown that improves cognitive function, uh, your working memory, your um visual and spatial memory. And after one week of practicing, it's actually been measured that your memory speed and accuracy improves. And after a second week, it improved even more. And this is something that I've seen for myself. I'm like, how could I remember that person's phone number, you know, people's names? It just sticks in there. So you're getting all these benefits, you're lying down and doing nothing, and you get all these benefits.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, yeah, it's so great. And it, I was skeptical. Um, it was, I would listen to a podcast about it, and that's what got me to try it. Because I feel as if yoga teachers, when they put people into shavasana, at least in the past, I've heard them do a somewhat yoga nidra-like practice of a body scan, but not a full yoga nidra, I guess, in my opinion. But I um I was curious what components have to be there to be considered a full Yoga Nidra practice to get the benefits? Is there a duration of time? Like I did a 10 minute one to start. I felt great, but what is there's some Yoga Nidra practices that are an hour and a half I've I've done. There's some that are 60 minutes, um, there's apps that have all the Range, what does one need to do to make sure they receive these benefits? Is there a duration that you suggest that that or that is recommended? Um, does it have to be a certain script with certain different components included? And what what are they? I guess we could take these one at a time, but I got a lot of questions about best practices. You know, should you be doing it in the morning, middle of the day? There's been times, middle of the night, I wake up where I'm just like, you know what, hit play. And, you know, sometimes it didn't help me, it did often help me get to sleep in those troubled nights, but there's other times where I just kept hitting play and I felt pretty gr pretty okay the next day, which was shocking to me. But that's just been my own personal experience. What what did what is your suggestions on these, the details on Yoga Nidra and how to best utilize it?

SPEAKER_00 23:00

So, for the scientific benefits we've been talking about, most of the studies are centered around 20 to 30 minutes of practice. That doesn't mean obviously longer does good things too, and shorter will do good things too. But if you want these scientific benefits, I would say a minimum of 20 to 30 minutes to get, you know, let's say sleep improvement at night, increased slow wave brain activity, all of that we've been talking about cognitive performance. Um, and then you can still do a shorter one if you don't have time. It's still going to boost your cognitive performance, it's still going to refresh you, make you feel clearer. It'll give you something. Um, and then the longer ones, definitely good. And these all most often people use when they can't sleep at night. So they put on a really long yoga nidra. And that because remember, the yoga nidra, even if you're not sleeping, is boosting the amount of deep sleep, the delta brainwaves that you're getting in your brain. So even though you're not sleeping, you're still getting some of that restoration because of the yoga nidra. It's not exactly the same as sleep, but you will feel more refreshed than if you hadn't done it. So great way that you're doing it. If you wake up, you can't fall back asleep, use this to either fall back asleep or to make up for the sleep loss. Uh, otherwise, times of day to practice. You can practice first thing in the morning if you like. You can even do it, you know, for some people, just getting from their bed to a yoga mat, you know, they get distracted by emails and kids and things like that. Just do it in bed, but take the shape, lie flat on your back, like a shavasana position, so that your body knows this is not sleep time. And uh you can do a yoga nidra then, which really prepares you for the day. It helps clear your mind, it's setting a foundation, good biology of you know, good GABA, good serotonin, all of that to help you begin your day. You can also do it in the afternoon, which you had mentioned is excellent, especially when you come home or when you're getting that blood sugar drop, instead of coffee or your nap, replace it with a yoga nidra. And this helps rebalance your blood sugar. It helps reboot your cognitive performance, your focus, uh, your dopamine release. It increases dopamine release, which has to do with focus and motivation. Um, and my husband and I actually do it right when he comes home from work because it just kind of reboots us and gives us the energy to be with our kids and to cook dinner and be nice to each other and calm and happy at night. Um, and it's an ideal time to then set yourself up for sleep at night. Um, so it's gonna already be preparing you for sleep at night. And then some people like to practice Yoga Nidra uh before sleep to help them fall asleep, which you can absolutely do. Other people find that the nidra actually is so rejuvenating and restorative that they cannot fall asleep at night. So in that case, I would do the morning or the afternoon if you're one of those folks.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Interesting. Okay, so it can be flexible based on your needs and what is convenient for you, then. Um is there now when I think of a traditional yoga nidra script by the textbook, there's a drawing your senses from the peripheral to the the core. I I explained that because that's the style of yoga I taught. There was a lot of talk about that, but that's what it made me think of as there's this bring your awareness to the outdoors, the space you're in, the body, the bring your attention maybe to your heartbeat. Um, then there's this um, you know, you could stop me if I'm getting these components wrong or in the wrong order, but then there's this body scan where you run through, you know, from your thumb all the way up one side of the body, then the other, and then they scan the whole body. Um then there's often a countdown from uh some auspicious number. I don't know if that's arbitrary, and then there is a um often imagery or different visualizations, often opposites, like really hot, really cold, heavy as a rock, light as a feather, those those sort of like opposite imageries. Do all of these need to be present in your opinion to receive these benefits, or do we know exactly which components, if we were to pick them out, are most helpful or need to be there for it to be Yoga Nidra? Or what is your take on that?

SPEAKER_00 28:15

So, first of all, just like there's different styles of yoga, there's different styles of yoga nidra. So if you've been to a yoga class, you know that the styles vary wildly from restorative all the way up to a pot power class. So, same with Yoga Nidra. There are different styles and each emphasize different things and have different stages. However, what's common is that they all work from the gross to the subtle, from the outward end, like you were saying. And really, what they're designed to do is create a profound internalization of attention. And so the way that I work is really by first, you could either withdraw from the outside world, but just bringing yourself into the body and first releasing the physical tensions in the body. So tension and relaxation, a little bit of stretching and so on. Then we go into usually some kind of breath work. So we've moved from the body, now we're moving to breath. And so essentially, you think of it as a series of mindfulness techniques, but that are structured in a way to work from the gross to the subtle. So the body, then when you move to the breath, then we move even more subtly into the body with these body scans, and they can vary. So there's toe to head, there's like you were talking about 61 points, there's right and left halves of the body. And these are important. This is one of the hallmarks of Yoga Nidra that you definitely want to include. And this seems to be one of the things that's helping people go down into the deeper brainwave states. So we definitely want to keep that. Um, and seems to have other benefits as well. And then we all also what's always included in a Yoga Nidra, in addition to the body scan, is some time you could say to rest in awareness, to just rest in that spaciousness behind the mind that has been created. And you'll feel it. You'll feel as you're going into a yoga nidra, you'll be like, oh, just stop talking. Just let me soak here for a minute. Because that's the whole purpose of the techniques. They're all designed. What, regardless of style, they're all designed to take you to that place where you're resting in this space that rests behind the mind. Think of it like the sky behind the clouds. Um, so I would say the breath, the body, the body scan, and that resting in awareness, these are three things that are pretty much always included in a Yoganendra in one way or the other. The uh the opposites can the imagery isn't always included for some people, that brings up their mind. So sometimes for me, for beginners, I don't start with imagery, I just let them go in and soak, and then I start introducing some of that imagery.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Is it purposeful to be in this deep state of relaxation, like you had mentioned, uh often being like, oh, I, you know, I'm so relaxed, please don't wake me up basically. And as you're taking the Yoga Nidra yourself as you're the uh student or the practitioner, um, I feel like you go through this mental gymnastics of like, I am so relaxed, and then teacher chimes in and like, doggone it, they woke me up a little bit. But isn't is there something to that that um hey get deeply relaxed, find extreme disengagement, dis, you know, disease and um, or I'm sorry, yeah, just like disengagement and deep relaxation, but don't fall asleep, you know. After even after long pauses, I might chime in and be like, oh, you're almost like jarred asleep, it feels. Is that part of that? Is this part of the process or what's going on there?

SPEAKER_00 32:09

It can be absolutely so part of you know, every nidra and every teacher has a different intent. Sometimes the intent is to help you fall asleep, like at night before you go to sleep. That's fine. But the other part of it is to really exercise the muscle of learning how to be deeply relaxed and operate in the world in in a relaxed way. So you need to be alert, but deeply relaxed at the same time. So it is like creating a muscle memory. Can I do both of these simultaneously? And the more that you practice, the better that you get at it.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, it's I've never heard it explained like that to prepare you to move into the real world and be in this state of relaxation as you operate. Um, it's interesting. And do you have to be in a certain, do you suggest like ideally, do you lie down in bed on a yoga mat? Like, does the space matter, you know, or or could you just lay on the couch? Or ideally, what's works or and is it able, are you able to kind of do this anywhere, basically?

SPEAKER_00 33:24

You know, I my feeling is, and of course everyone's different, but my feeling is if you're gonna do the yoga nidra, I don't care where you do it, you know, because the fact that you are doing it is the most important. So traditionally it would be done lying on a yoga mat or on the floor. It is a bit more grounding to connect you with the earth, of course. Um, in a supine position, lying on your back, usually something under your knees, a little, just a little tiny bit of padding under the head, and usually you're covered with a blanket because your body temperature drops. You can take the same position in bed. So for people who have chronic pain, or like I said, it's just too much to roll out of mat and actually do it, just lie down on a couch, same thing. And I have people who have chronic pain who they need to be in their, you know, their lazy boy chair. I I say, you know, take whatever position that is going to create the least disturbance in your body. So the less pain or discomfort you have in your body, the easier it is going to be to go into the deeper brainwave states and get deeper restoration. So that to me is the most important.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Okay. Okay. And um what um do you suggest using a app or a script? Or I mean it's it's all I'm imagining scripts. However, do you have a suggestion on where to point people if they're trying wanting to start? I use the Insight Timer app often. There's some YouTube um Yoga Nidra scripts that are are lovely as well. But what what do you suggest for folks who are brand new?

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Yeah. So um you can also always look me up on YouTube, comedy decide. Uh, I have some free yoga nidras on there. I'm also on Insight Timer. I also have an app. It's also it's on the laptop, it's on your phone. It's called I Am Being. I am being. And you can just look it up on your laptop. What I like about it, as you were saying, is it has a whole range. So it has from 50, I don't have many, but I have some 15-minute Yoga Nidras. Most of mine go 20 all the way up to 55 minutes. Uh, and then I've got little short things that you can do in your car at work just to sort of reboot yourself, uh, as well as some teachings on Yoga Nidra as well. So that could be a good, uh it has a free level, and that could be a good place to start as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Beautiful. And what other benefits excite you about this practice? I've I've heard folks talk about compulsion and addiction, insomnia, but I I I know we touched on the insomnia sleep component a bit, but what what other benefits excite you? I this compulsion things I imagine is uh it seems like a huge a huge benefit to uh in your experience, or what do we know about that and involving compulsion and addiction?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah. So one of the things that Yoga Nidra is said to benefit, and this is via meditation. So Yoga Nidra is a type of meditation. And uh one of the things that meditation and Yoga Nidra work with is uh impulse control. And so Yoga Nidra as a form of meditation actually strengthens the prefrontal cortex, which manages the deeper impulses. Think of it like a tiger that's in your amygdala, right? That wants, that craves, that desires things. But it's the strength of this prefrontal cortex that is basically your inner parent who says, Well, I know you want that, but we're not gonna have it. That can have the desire, but has enough strength to, I don't want to say control, but manage that desire. So it's the one who can ride the tiger rather than being ridden by the tiger. So when we struggle with compulsions and addictions, part of what's happened is that this deeper part of the brain has become accustomed to being the boss. The tiger is the one who's in charge. And the more that we practice something like Yoga Nidra, we bring that prefrontal cortex, we strengthen it. So it's actually been shown that just 11 hours of practicing a technique like Yoga Nidra can measurably strengthen, can increase the thickness of the prefrontal cortex, the gray matter in the prefrontal cortex. That's amazing. Um, and so it makes it easier to have the feeling, having the craving, but without acting on it. And what's interesting is that the more you practice this, so Yoga Nidra, especially in this context, you want to practice it, but then you also take those tools into your life. So every time you strengthen your prefrontal cortex in Yoga Nidra, and then in life, you practice with little things, feeling the craving, but not acting on the craving. So one of the ways that I practice, for example, is I'm looking at my phone, I catch myself going through, scrolling through something. And as soon as I catch myself, I put my phone down, right? And every time you practice change, like putting it down or even delaying what it is that you want, you are reinforcing that strengthening in your prefrontal cortex. So you practice it in the Yoga Nidra, but you want to reinforce it in life to really get those benefits working for you.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Yeah, it's it's fascinating because yeah, I wouldn't think Yoga Nidra, something that is meant to deeply disengage and relax, would push on the button of almost like an adaptive stress response and an ability to um handle compulsion. It's it seems like, oh, you know, I could see how exercise and doing hard things, even like yoga, in a way, kind of pushes on this ability to do lean into the difficult things and maybe catch that space between thought and action and adjust maybe how you respond. But it's interesting that Yoga Nidra has this. Um, is it the same as like a sleep benefit? Is like that's something similar. Like, is it is that where that's coming from?

SPEAKER_00 40:08

I would say it's more a meditation benefit rather than a sleep benefit, but you're right. So what it's doing is so all meditation, Yoga Nidra included, create distance between you and it, whatever that it is. And in that it, in that space, you have room to consciously choose rather than automatically going for it. We call this tool disidentification. So it's like rather than it that craving or that habit or the way of thinking pulling you around the world, you're able to notice it as something that is external to you. And now that you see it as a thing, you kind of zoom out from it, you can choose to engage it or not, which makes it really powerful. And then there's biochemistry that's also helping you. Um, so a lot in on the in the addiction field and compulsion field, one of the things in addiction is the dopamine pathway. And most addiction is giving us a dopamine hit. We've heard about this, and also being on our phones, et cetera. Well, yoga nidra increases the release of dopamine from within your own brain, like a lot. Um, one study has shown up to 65% in release of endogenous dopamine uh during specifically yoga nidra. Now I'm talking, okay. And what this means is the more that you have, you feel this feeling of well-being and dopamine within your own body, it actually reduces your need, it reduces your cravings and increases your impulse control. So you're getting help from a lot of sides. You're getting help from the meditative benefit, but also from the biochemical benefit that from Yoga Nidra.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

That's incredible. Um, is there any any other benefits that excite you? I mean, it seems like there's just a whole cascade of potential benefits, you know. It's but is there anything that we didn't touch on here that you want to bring up?

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Well, I'm I'm not gonna say this is scientific. This is just me, but bear with me for a moment. So there is, according to yoga, 45 minutes of Yoga Nidra is as restorative as three hours of sleep. Okay, and those numbers vary, people say it slightly differently. And the one thing that we don't have yet is something that specifically proves that to be true. But here's what we do have. So every night when we are sleeping at night, we get in total that delta sleep that gets improved with Yoga Nidra. In a good night of sleep, you get anywhere between 60 and 110 minutes in total, eight hours of sleep of this delta slow wave sleep. Okay. In one yoga nidra, of course, yoga nidra experiences vary, but one deep yoga nidra can give you as much as 20 minutes of that slow wave sleep. That means in a yoga nidra, you could be getting as much as one-third of what you would get in an entire night of sleep. That's incredible. That's supercharged restoration. And the studies are showing us that not only in the Yoga Nidra are you getting more slow wave sleep, but it's increasing the slow wave sleep that you get in regular sleep. So it's supercharged restoration for your body. And that's what your body needs to improve memory consolidation, to improve cognitive performance, the bone mineralization, like human growth hormone release, um, where you're burning fat, you're building muscle, you're regenerating all the organs of your body. There's incredible things that are happening in these deep states. And you get it at a supercharged level with Yoga Nidra.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

That's so great. I it seems so accessible and such a potential benefit for folks. It's just she feels like a no a no-brainer. Um and what is it about the can you tell me a little bit about the philosophy component of Yoga Nidra?

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yes. So basically, Yoga Nidra includes the word yoga. So yoga is oneness or wholeness. Nidra means sleep. So you're entering a state of wholeness via conscious sleep, which we've discussed. And the purpose of Yoga Nidra is really to recognize that you have a mind, you have thoughts, but you are not your thoughts. And it allow it helps you not just know this cognitively, but experientially by progressively quieting the activity in your mind until you are resting in just a vast space of silence. That's the purpose of Yoga Nidra, to recognize that you are that silent space behind the mind. And the more that you rest as that silence, kind of like the sky behind the clouds, the less you will be affected by the thoughts themselves. And so this is really what the yogi said is the cause of our suffering is we become overly identified with the thoughts, the circumstances, the challenges, the problems that are moving through our lives, and we become the victim of them. But the more we practice from the philosophical point of view, something like Yoga Nidra, the more we're resting as the sky that can just more easily let things come. You deal with them as you deal with them, and you let them go. So you're less afraid of what's coming, you're more able to let be here what's here, you deal with it, and then you let it go rather than continually chewing on it in your mind. So it helps us create a healthier relationship with the thoughts and events that are moving through our lives by recognizing that we are actually more than them, and we can rest as something that's greater than those things.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Yeah, I was going back through my yoga philosophy. There's like this idea of being this objective versus subjective and kind of spanning back, and and things like a Yoga Nidra seems to take this bigger picture view, this panoramic view of who you are and what that means. Um it's interesting. Um do you find that folks kind of get that sense naturally, or do you teach that within your Yoga Nidra or discussions?

SPEAKER_00 46:57

When I people do have it naturally, but I do lead Yoga Nidra courses. And what I find is when you understand the purpose of the practice, it does deepen its effect. So typically people will say, you know, I feel more relaxed, I had a better sleep. But when they really understand and see how going through the brainwaves is actually quieting the mind, it's leading you to the very core of your consciousness that is beyond all thought, then they start to see, oh yeah, I am experiencing that. And it seems somehow that the combination of these two takes them even deeper and lets them get more out of the practice. So it's interesting because in the Yoga Sutras, which is one of the major texts of yoga, they talk, they one of the most famous lines is yoga is stilling the modifications or the waves in the mind. Well, what are we doing in Yoga Nidra? We are literally stilling the waves in the mind. So we are practicing this, you know, in a very direct, very simple way. And it's based on something your body already knows how to do. I mean, what could be easier than that? And if the body has forgotten how to fall asleep, we're reteaching the body how to fall asleep. So here's the thing is that many of us who suffer from insomnia, it's like the harder we struggle to fall asleep, we're moving further away from sleep. So with this Yoga Nidra practice, you're basically sort of reteaching your body and taking your body through those natural stages of letting go, which is required to fall asleep, the fragmenting of your thoughts that's required to fall asleep.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah, I love that. I I feel there's this sense of concealment revelation in different currents of life or different phases and um seasons of life where we kind of forget, even if you've been practicing for a while. I think I've done yoga practiced yoga for a while, a long time. And then I think finding Yoga Nidra was just a remembrance almost of this bigger this philosophy. And it's something sweet, even about that flow of concealment revelation. And I feel like Yoga Nidra provides that.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Absolutely. And what I love about it is, you know, a lot of people deselect themselves from a typical yoga class. They're like, well, I can't touch my toes, I can't wear the outfit, etc. But if you know, everybody can do Yoga Nidra. Everybody can close their eyes and go into a deep state. So this allows us to get those deep benefits that the yogis have been promising us for thousands of years, but with a practice that everybody can do. And and to your point, I feel like it's a very targeted approach to quieting the mind to rest as the silence behind the mind. It's very simple, very targeted. It takes you right there, and people can experience it from the very first time. I have students who come out and they open their eyes and they're like, Whoa, what was that? Because it is different from anything that they've experienced before.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

Yeah, Khamedy, I I run a very small yoga retreat here in the Finger Lakes, and um often I attract folks who don't practice yoga. Sometimes I bring friends because there's a lot of time on the lake and it's just a fun, fun trip. And I um I always kind of preface with, hey, everything's optional. This is the yoga nidra, the meditation I will be offering. You're welcome to give it a shot. That's why I suggest and see what you think. And I kind of unpack what that looks like because people hear meditation. They said, uh, you know, I've tried, I've sat, tried to sit still and calm my mind or whatever. And um for folks willing to give it a shot, even with bringing the friend along, I'll tell you, they um I'm shocked, even with one go at it, how they're they come up and they're like, Yeah, you know, I thought I'd be exhausted after, or I thought I'd just be asleep, and maybe I did fall asleep, I can't tell, but I feel so refreshed after, and then we're on to the next activity, and they're just like eyes are lit up, and there's feel rejuvenated after, even after just the one session. It's it's it's I definitely hear where you're coming from there, and I've I've seen it, and it's it's kind of it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Yes, until you've experienced it, you really can't say, and that's why people have a hard time describing it because it's not waking, it's not dreaming, it's not deep sleep, it's something that's beyond all of those, and you're not sure if you were awake or you were asleep, but when you were asked to come back, you do. So you're not asleep, um, but you're not awake in the way that you're normally awake. So it really is a unique state that we're discovering with Yoga Didra.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

That's so sweet. I I was curious if there's anything else, Kameny. I I um I know there's been a boost in popularity. Some folks have re-coined Yoga Nidra non-sleep deep rest. I loved that actually. Um, a lot of people I know that are in the more traditional worlds have pushed back against that that I've had on. But in my opinion, um, if it gets more folks trying Yoga Nidra, maybe they'll come around to that idea. Like I teach yoga for dudes, and then eventually, you know, they just come around to the fact, hey, we're just practicing yoga. It's cool that you got us in here by saying that. But um, in my opinion, it's a positive. If we could have a greater impact and help more people, calling it something like non-sleep deep rest might get folks who are um maybe reluctant based on languaging or feeling um like maybe hey, I'm not into to yoga, so why would I even try this Yoga Nidra? So, in my opinion, it's it's not a bad thing, it's a positive thing. But where do you stand on that? Or is there anything that you um cautious us as we get more popularized with Yoga Nidra?

SPEAKER_00 53:41

No, I I would say I'm with you. I feel like if more people can get the benefits of Yoga Nidra by calling it something else to get them in the room, like why would we not do that? Um, so I definitely understand that. And I guess my only concern because I come from a tradition, these are teachings for me that have been passed down through um, you know, masters to my father and then to me uh in a very authentic form. So I guess my only caveat to that is I don't mind what it's called, but not losing, you know, keeping in in mind all the physiological benefits, but not losing the subtle, um, I would say more philosophical benefits of Yoga Nidra as well. So in in Yoga Nidra, we talk about more on the esoteric side, how it can actually change habits and behaviors, which is not that strange. You know, we talk whatever we repeat on a regular basis uh becomes part of our neural pathway. But the yogis talk about how we can change our habits and behaviors, even deep-seated traumas, habits and behaviors that come from those traumas and painful experiences that are still affecting us. We can rewire those with Yoga Nidra. We can use intention. So as we go into these deeper brainwave states, we're progressively reaching into the core of our consciousness and not just through the right brain, which is hypnosis, but the whole brain, which is yoga nidra. And we can make changes by accessing the whole brain through this use of intention. And so I guess I would say I wouldn't want to lose that the depth and the subtlety of Yoga Nidra as it goes wide. I'm thrilled it's going wide, but of course, I would want to keep the authenticity to it as well and use it in these more subtle ways for people to change things, not just with will and hard work at the conscious mind alone, but by understanding that actually sometimes the less you do, and the more that you try make changes, not just from the waking state, but from the deep sleep state, you know, you can make changes from there as well. You don't have to rely on first gear waking for all your changes and all your effort and hard work. The more you let go, the deeper you go into these and you know, these delta brainwave states, you can make changes and shifts from there as well. And they happen effortlessly.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

I love that. I I was curious how how many times should one be disciplined? I guess the only lift is the discipline of laying down and doing this. And so if someone were to start this on their own, I for a while there every day for me. I've kind of scaled it back to three to five times a week. Um, what is is it like a yoga practice, or or do we know like three to I always say three times a week with yoga, you'll find life-changing benefits. And that's just been my personal experience. But could you speak either on your own personal experience, what you would recommend or what they they suggest in science?

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Yeah, so for most scientific studies are based on five to seven days a week. This is for real scientific benefits, like the brain changes I was talking about. Um, five to seven days a week. What I would say is that it's better to practice consistently rather than doing like one Yoga Nidra a weekend. The more that you can practice, the more benefit you're gonna get. And maybe to start out, for those of who the who are motivated, start out for three months and try to do it like five days a week. And what this does is it gets those brain changes happening, it gets your nervous system re-regulated, it gets all the benefits happening. And now you've kind of got momentum. And for me, I find I can pretty much then maintain with three times a week. And then I know if I'm particularly stressed, my husband will let me know. I need to do some more yoga nidra. So you can always bump it up if you feel like, okay, I need a little bit of extra. I'm losing my internal balance.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

Yeah, having that extra person in your life or thing in your life to remind you, uh, give you perspective. I always say there's a third thing happening when there's a relationship that uh is a benefit if you approach it right. Absolutely that gives you perspective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

And and your kids, your family can see the difference. They see how you are when you come out of Yoga Nidra. You're calm, you're nice, you're more able to respond, not so reactive. And then they see how you are when you haven't been doing your Yoga Nidra. And even my kids sometimes, or I've heard of other people's kids, will say, Okay, mom, it's time for nidra now. You need it, which is so sweet to see. That means they're seeing the benefits.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

That's so cool. I um yeah, I've noticed I've been able to really, like you mentioned before, lean into tougher things like difficult conversation or like, hey, I really got to say this honestly here. And it's kind of helps you push on that button oddly. Like it's just so true.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

It does. Yeah, it just helps you stay regulated and also more aligned with yourself. It's like anything that isn't serving your your peace just kind of naturally surfaces, and you're more able to face it and deal with it, but in a calm, non-reactive way, just like this isn't working for me.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

Yeah. Yeah, that's the tricky part, I think, is to not be so attached to um the maybe the response you get from it, but your own piece and uh doing what you know is right in your deep down, I feel, sometimes. Um I imagine you're connected with Ryan, our friend, who is also in a mental health uh professional, an amazing one. And I'm assuming it's through this Yoga Nidra tool that you've connected with him. Uh, I could be, am I right on that?

SPEAKER_00 59:59

You are right. So he actually came and did the 10-day Yoga Nidra training with me, and that's where we originally met.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

So sweet. And it's amazing that he is such a proponent of it. Like it really lights me up to hear a guy like that putting that out into the world. I think um someone like him and uh an Andrew Huberman is like, yeah, right on. Strong-willed guy, strong guy. This is speaking the benefits of Yoga Nidra, um, and who's also a mental health professional, that's gotta be heartening for you, I imagine. Do you see this? Is if you could be, if you had um the opportunity, where do you see Yoga Nidra progressing? Like, do you equip other psychologists or folks like Ryan who are mental health professionals with these tools to go out into the world and offer them to directly to their clients or even themselves walk them through in a session through a Yoga Nidra? Um, where do you see this, or or do you see any other uh applications if you were to uh if you were to look into the future, or maybe it's already happening?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

Yeah, I I think it's already happening, but maybe we are just at the beginning of the wave. Um, I think that Yoga Nidra is going to become increasingly popular. And not just in the mainstream, but also among psychologists, uh, mental health professionals who are looking for alternative ways to re-regulate the nervous system. So uh, or work with anxiety, insomnia, these kinds of conditions. Because we know that um, I'm not saying don't take medications, but we also know that they have um they have side effects. We also know that some of them, their effectiveness wears off over time. And so why not bring in a complimentary method in addition to whatever else the person is doing to help them kind of take ownership and feel like they are a power, they're they're empowered to change this on their own in a really helpful way. And with all we've talked about, it's not just going to help them with their symptoms, but with their whole life. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:23

So sweet. Well, that's a wonderful way to tie this conversation up in a bow. But is there anything else, Comedy, that we didn't touch on? Or if you want to put out, you brought up your app, if there's any other places that folks could reach out to you or or support you, where can we point them?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Yes. So I have actually a Yoga Nidra book. Uh, so if you're interested in more of the studies, it's called Yoga Nidra, the Art of Transformational Sleep. It's on Amazon, also on Audible. Uh, I do lead trainings for psychologists, mental health professionals, yoga teachers, anyone, and also just people who want an immersion in Yoga Nidra to really learn how to practice it, the authentic teachings behind it. So just look me up, Kameny at comedydesci.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:08

Excellent. And I will link that into the show notes for folks. Please go check out Kamen's great work and her book app. So many things you're up to. And man, this is such a pleasure to talk with you, Kami, and such a delightful um way of explaining these benefits of Yoga Nidra and Yoga Nidra itself in a way that that everyone could understand. I I so appreciate you taking the time today to talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

My pleasure. Always happy to talk Yoga Didra. Thanks too.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

Excellent. Let's do it again. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

Take care.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

Thanks for tuning in. If you found my conversation with Comedy to be informative, if it got you thinking, if you learned something, please give the podcast a like, share it with a friend, and subscribe. You can find me on all social media platforms, especially Instagram at Yoga with Jake, and on my website, yogawithjake.com. Until next time, take care of it.