SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today, I'm honored to share a heartfelt conversation with Ross Rayburn. Ross is a leader in the yoga, meditation, and wellness space. Many will know him from his years at Peloton, where he offered expertly taught and beautifully themed classes. He's since moved on from Peloton, and after about 30 years of teaching, he shares how his philosophy on yoga, meditation, and the meaning of self has evolved. He's someone whom I've personally admired for being a strong male figure in yoga, who is authentic, strong, intelligent, and honest with his teachings. I'm Jake Panasevich, and this is the Yoga with Jake podcast. Hello, Ross. Jake, what's up? Not too much, man. How are you doing? I'm well, Jake. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks for thanks for taking the time to chat with me today.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, I've always been a fan of yours um from your teachings on Peloton and then have since continued to follow you. And uh I always was curious, you know, your background and um where you're coming from, because I love your teachings. And you know, I was wondering if we just start a little bit to uh get a little bit of a background about yourself and if you could tell me where you're from and uh what got you first interested in in yoga.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I always whenever I get a question like that, my first reaction is like, How long do we have? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Well, the uh the maybe the abridged variation.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah, and again, this is for people who know me, they've heard me say this a thousand times, but it's such a good line that I still use it every time. One of my closest friends who I'm a big believer that you must you must it bring people in your circle that just know how to cut you down to the quick. You know, like yeah, that's those are the best friends in the world. And um, my friend Hunter is like he is the absolute best at just like really, I'll just say it like really bitchy humor. Um, and so I use that word in the in hopefully an unoffensive way, but I mean it with love toward him because I love people like that, and he calls me Ross Landy Fing plane Rayburn.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

So as you will see, the uh circumlocution is is a is can is like uh you uh uh it's um uh an attribute and a flaw.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

As a lot of things are, yeah, double-edged sword, huh?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, but I am pretty good about bringing it back. So the abridged version uh of like bio slash yoga bio is I think probably the headline is very late to the yoga game, the yoga journey relative to a lot a lot of teachers, at least in my experience, how it used to be. I'm not you know, I'm I'm in my 56th year, I've turned 55 in February. I like to always give the year that I'm in, not that I'm the one that I'm heading towards is a way of embracing the future. Also something that is annoyed, hunter to you know to the in to the nth degree. Um, but I was 20, I was I it was 19, I was born in 71, and I'm bad at math, and it was 1997. So I was 26, 27 when I started, and I honestly I knew nothing about yoga. I I grew up in uh in Texas, South Houston, Southern Baptist, um, went to church like four times a week. Um loved it. And church was a a little bit of a double-edged sword because I loved it so much. I loved the fellowship and the music. And but then at the same time, even though I didn't come out until I was 24, being gay in the 80s in Southern Baptist, Texas, you know, was not the most fun experience ever. And it was like full of self-hatred, a lot, full a lot of like things that I'm dealing with now about um, you know, what I was what I was told about who I was, and then really the journey of of um rewriting that story, which yoga and meditation became arguably the most important um salve or medicine for that healing journey. Um, but it definitely embedded uh a love of God at the time. I just said God, and now usually we'll refer to goddess or universe or or whatever the um personal vision someone has of deity. And in that that it embedded in me a uh not only a love of God, but but a love of spirit. And you know, there was a political science degree and a journalism degree, and uh thinking I was gonna be a lot of different things, but eventually moved to LA because I loved acting and I thought I was good. Luckily found out that I wasn't because unless you're great and lucky, you should, you know, it's not it's not a wonderful job. And I was lucky, but not great. So I was working a lot as an actor in LA, but I there was lots of evidence that I was bad. And I mean, I'm not being self-deprecating here. Um uh my favorite story to tell, one of my favorite stories to tell is how first time I showed my boyfriend slash soon-to-be husband an episode of a show I was on. It was a show called Sweet Valley High. If anybody wants, don't look it up, but I'm sure someone will know.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Um, like we didn't have sex for like six months after I showed him that episode. Like it was that bad. Um, but I started so I uh was acting, working enough, waiting tables that I didn't have to wait tables very much, cut to doing an AIDS ride, which was a ride from San Francisco to Los Angeles to raise money for AIDS. This again, this was in the 80s, so that was um you know something that went on. There were quite a few of them around the nation. Didn't listen to my knee as it started to swell, tore the meniscus. Someone said you I didn't want to have surgery. Someone said you can do yoga to rehabilitate your knee. Went into class, and that's how it started. Brian Kest was my first ever class. Uh, he also then later gave me one of my first jobs. Um, and then there were a lot of wonderful teachers at the beginning. Sarah Ivanhoe, uh, Sue Elkin, Naeem Jazini, uh, then at Yoga Works, Sean Korn, Maria Zrati. Like it was kind of that 90s. I was sort of like the second generation of that night. I was that I think that's really more of a third generation. Because if you take the greats of the seven the 70s and early 80s, um, you know, then that early 90s generation, like Mati, I was kind of next, um, sort of after Madonna made it cool. And then yeah, I just started to fall in love with it. I did it all the time, way type A, too much, and um woke up one day hating acting so much that I was like, why am I doing this at all? I love yoga, why don't I teach yoga? And that was the switch. And I didn't realize at the time that it was gonna be the thing that I do the rest of my life. But so it was a slow evolution over the next few years, particularly when I met John Friend in Anasara Yoga, where I saw a whole new version of yoga that wow, this is really kind of bringing me back to the spirituality of my youth, but simultaneously a love of the the celebrating the physical and the sport side of me, the athletic side of me, and a way to weave that in and make money. That then in hindsight, particularly, was like, oh, this is what I was meant to do.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah, so very all I do for land on the plane.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, that's good. That's really good. But it's funny, right? Like, because you bring up your upbringing in something like church, community, spiritual, and meaning. And you sound like that continues to be a big part of your life, obviously. But then also the Tormeniscus is what got you, got you to give it a shot with yoga. And um, I didn't realize now I'm remembering because I trained Anyasara with and I've trained uh with Sue Elkin and and Naeem. And yeah, yeah, so they're great. And and some of their, I'm sure some of the same teachers, but um, but yeah, that's so interesting. I for I forgot that you were Anyasara.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Um, yeah, that was that so I'll like so Naeem. Um so Sue was one of my very first teachers at Crunch. LA pre-Anasara, because this was before they started studying. They they were the ones that found John and then brought it to the studio where I was I was working. It's a again, it's a bit of a convoluted story, but my first class with Naeem was in 1990, I'm gonna call it 1998, and it was in a boxing gym, and we were in like the stretching, there were like six of us in the stretching area in LA next to this boxing gym. And I'm like, who is because Sue is, you know, Sue would be like in you know, Suri Yantrasana, you know, like with her her leg up here, and she'd be like, God, I'm so tight today. I'm like, ugh, I cannot even with you, and you know, but Naeem was like he was always built, and I was like, oh my god, like because at that point I was I thought of I wasn't a yoga guy because I was I'm pretty naturally muscular and I was sporty, and I was like, Naeem, oh my god, this guy is fit, buff, you know, super masculine, but straight and also super feminine. And yeah, he I was Naeem like opened up a lot of um he he he broke down a lot of misimpressions for me. Yeah, I love Naeem is such a I get a little bit of teary when I think about because that was like I have a lot I have a lot of uh love for them for those reasons.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Sure. No, they're they're so committed and have been at it forever, and uh some folks I look up to in a way that they've really uh created a whole community and business and stuck have stuck with it for a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Um we should shout out Dig is the name of their students. Yes, give them a give them a plug, so an unsolicited plug.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah, I spent many hours there. It's uh I think it's still in Lambertville, New Jersey, unless they moved. There's a couple moves in there, but uh you're right.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

I'm not sure either. I shouldn't not. I'm I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

I think I think it's there right around there, but yeah, fit exceptionally great people and teachers, and um and it's not always the case, you know. I've I've don't know what your experience has been like in a teacher as we bring up John Friend, and for those who don't know, there's many yoga scandals out there, but you know, John Friend is one of them who you know developed this amazing style of yoga and probably more of an amazing group of teachers and community. That community component is something that uh I've still to this day long for and miss what Anyasara brought as far as bringing people together like that. But um, but yeah, I've had many instances as I became a yoga teacher where teachers have let me down or feel as if they uh get to pull the veil off of the yoga teacher guys and find out they're not such a great people, whether you're getting burned financially or getting burned in other ways with power, working at a studio. It's not always um love and light, as they say, and in used to say in Anyasara world, but what was your experience like, you know, as you had navigated yoga, maybe for the first time? It sounds like you had a great introduction to yoga with great teachers, and um, but was it always uh a happy, blissed out path? Or what can you take me through what that experience was like as you were coming up learning yoga and then becoming a teacher?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Um, sure. And also, I always like to point out that I'm the perfect person to ask for this because I'm actually perfect, right? I don't have any flaws, and therefore, since there's nothing wrong with me at all, there's no chance of me ever disappointing my students. Yeah, yeah, right. You're enlightened, yeah. I mean, that's and I say that, of course, is a massive joke to you know, I you know to say now what doesn't need to be said, which is in my opinion, and definitely in my experience, there is no such thing as a teacher that is perfect, or a teacher that if pulled back, if their layers are pulled back to a sufficient amount that they will disappoint, blah blah blah, betray. Um I had someone tell me once, like, be prepared to be betrayed, uh, suc severely betrayed 11 times in your life. And when of course, I'm in my, you know, I think the point is not the 11, but it's the you know, the lesson that that's the way the world works. What and and this is one of my the philosophies that I learned both you know, like from John and from many of the teachers like Douglas Brooks and Sally Kimpton and many of the other philosophy professors that he brought in, which is whether or not they follow it, the lesson of are you first looking in the mirror? Are you asking yourself, are you self-reflecting and asking in a crisis moment or in a you know beautiful moment, which is often harder sometimes than the crisis moment, uh, to self-reflect in the bliss, while some, you know, not to mention so of course, self-reflect in the mud, but to self-reflect in the sunshine, if you can do both and everywhere in between, and ask what is my complicity or my uh contribution to this betrayal or to this abundance, you're much. I mean, to me, that's kind of what is really meant by a parigraha and the not and non-attachment is not about detachment, but about distance enough to assess a perspective that gives you power, like a perspective that says, okay, it's about this percentage me and this percentage them. Therefore, I'm gonna act or react in this way, as opposed to what I think definitely happened with me, and I'm pretty sure happened with a lot of people in the what I thought of as the first trial by Facebook, the Anasara scandal, which was like 2011-12, really 2012. Um, and that was kind of it was almost like like one of the first kind of me too, one of the first kind of cancellations, at least in like in the in the post-facebook realm, in the social media uh world. And I just, you know, it's it's it sounds almost so silly to articulate because once I feel like I say it, it's so obvious. It's natural for us as humans to vilify and to um blame and just point fingers as a way of protecting ourselves when something bad happens, particularly when it's something that you believe in, and in Anasara's case, was our livelihood that this you know the shitstorm happens, and it's the safe thing to just say that's his fault, and that's blah blah blah, and not what did I do to potentially contribute to this. And the next question of how do I ascertain the value from the experience, which with John, with Anasara, I mean, the the vast majority of things that I have built my career on and have built my heart on, and that have filled my heart, were gleaned either from him or in an in a realm that he helped nurture. And so for me to not be able to say, like, you know, I will forever to to say authentically, which I do, I will forever be grateful for him and for that, and then simultaneously be able to at least internally and sometimes externally, say, this was effed up, this was not done the right way, this is how I won't, I will try to not do it when I get into another cult-like environment, you know, which is the the word that everybody like kind of circles around, and which is actually what we're talking about, which is one of my favorite conversations, and that is how do you how do we nurture culture without slipping into cult? The same word, same root word, and that dynamic, moment-to-moment, day-to-day question, I think, is one of the most important questions for us politically, culturally, relationship-wise. And it definitely was a huge lesson, a huge blessing from that betrayal that I would I would not I would not change for a second. I that's why I call it a blessing from that time, because I feel like it now gives me a little bit more um, it gives me a greater up um perspective. I'm more I'm more likely to gain perspective because of that when it happens again. And that's really the lesson which I think is at the core of your question. It's gonna happen. Teachers are gonna, you know, F up, we're gonna F up. How do we step back, see it in all these sort of complex, nuanced ways like culture and cult, value and um and and not, and therefore, in a in a complex, nuanced, hopefully honest, sacred way move forward affirmatively, and that just to put it in a nice little bow, that to me is what the sutras and the Upanishads and the tantras and the agamas and and the Bible and like that's actually really what it's like. I think what they're supposed what they're trying to say, which is step back, take a breath, and do your bet and do your best.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah, that is yoga, in my opinion, too, is the skill of that. Um, and it's not easy, and that's why we practice, you know, to willfully pause or force yourself to pause to experience the experience you're having. And um, yeah, there's so many threads of topics and uh different yeah themes that as you were speaking like resonate, like to be an adult. Uh Douglas would always say, you know, you gotta be wounded three times, one in power, one in love. I think the one was like in finance and power. I mean, that's the power one. But that's that's funny. I have so many Douglasisms in my lexicon. I don't know that. I don't know that one. I like it. Yes, yeah. I think you need to be, that's what to be considered an adult, you have to be wounded by family and in love and power, like which could be financial. But yeah, yeah. So that's that came to mind too. Um, I think I think sometimes it's difficult because people come to yoga very willing to be vulnerable over time and see the teacher through the starry-eyed lens. And I think some of the best teachers I've had post John Friend, who are through the same lineage, granted, uh brilliant teachers, have expressed pretty much what you said on the onset of this conversation that I am not perfect. I am, and then a willingness to, now that I look back at it, to show that they're not. You don't love me, you love this practice, and I am not, you know, by any means um without some blemishes. And I think that is the beauty of yoga, is this realization of taking a pause and recognizing where you stand or where you how you feel, and then moving forward in a way that's like you said, affirms how you want to be in the world. And I think that's exactly what yoga is for me anymore. Um, what is it always a spiritual?

SPEAKER_01 23:36

I I like how you said that.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Sweet. No, thank you. Yeah, I think we do speak this similar language, maybe because of the Anyasara background, but I think it sounds like we've got a lot of similar background, which is interesting. I had no idea. So, yeah, very cool. I um yeah, I was curious, was yoga always uh this spiritual, meaningful pursuit for you? Or were you like a lot of us? For me, it was entry point was power yoga. That was what was available and what introduced me to it. It was a good fit for what I needed. But then quickly, something had to shift for to keep my interest and um seeking out more meaning and more philosophy that actually resonated in the real world. But how did it start for you um initially? Were you also? It sounds like injury was maybe the catalyst, but you had always been a truth seeker, it sounds like. But um, could you take me through the yeah, that initial evolution, like how how you started? Did you start pretty physical, or did you always think no, there's something more going on here with yoga?

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Um, yeah, for sure, for sure. It's um it definitely started from physical because of the the injury. And at the time, I I was more uh lit up uh by the by I mean, I did it, I did an Ashtanga type of practice. I didn't really formally like I never really committed to it so much that I was doing like primary series every morning at 4 30, but I would go to Ashtanga classes. And then at the time in the you know, in the late 90s in LA, I mean it was a golden age in the sense that um I mean I was like just this is so telling. I even though I lived in West Hollywood, I would go down to Santa Monica or Venice at least once a day, and then take a class in West Hollywood at the gym, or there was a a place where another one of my uh uh first teachers, a guy, a guy called Anthony Beninati, who actually went into business with Sue and Naeem. They started City Yoga, uh, which then became a formerly Anasara studio in the in like 2000, 99, like late 99. Um, but yeah, Eric Schiffman, as I mentioned, Mati, Sean Korn, um Annie Carpenter, like so. There was an Iyengar group that I would go to. Um, but then like Brian's power class, and um and you know, to like to Bikram and like the a very like it was across the board, but it was definitely more fit. I loved the physical, I loved the sweat, and in hindsight, to be candid, I loved the the ego dopamine competition of it because I was strong and because it was hand balance, arm balance heavy, it was like, look at me, look at what I can do. Sure. Um, and in a lot of tellings of that, it would be easy to interpret me kind of dissing that as a as a less than whatever, uh, you know, a less than spiritual way, air quotes, in case you're listening to this, um uh entry point gateway to a again, air quotes, spiritual practice. I didn't at the time, but I definitely do now, and I want I'm bringing I'm saying it this way to make a a uh deeply held philosophical point, which is I I now mostly define spirit as the umbrella or the um uh the ground to you know up down up down perspective, whichever way you want to look at it, the the encasement of all of it. And so I because I I get a little bit annoyed and now just compassionate, annoyed, then compassionate with people who set the two things aside, like that the physical and the spiritual are distinct and even disconnected, and to push back on that and say, like, come on, you know, I'm a perfect example of I went for an arguably, you know, a physical reason and was there for a physical negative reason, meaning I was just like competing to be the best, you know, look at my crow. But seeds were planted, and whether those were new seeds or seeds that were or it was seeds were there and they were actually being watered by Brian's kind of get out of your ego spirituality to um, you know, Douglas Brooks and Sally Kempton's beautiful Tantra uh non-duality lessons about um you know that ultimately we're all the same. And so it's completely, I think, a kind of a a bit of a silly kind of like a little bit of folly to try to like know exactly where the line is or was on what was efficacious or what was catalytic relative to me moving forward or saying it's not you know continuing and being where I am today and who I am today. So instead of really trying to figure it out, that's a long way for me to get around saying now, I look at it as all the same, or at least I look at it as all the same on a deep level with a higher, more call it superficial level of virtue and value. And that, you know, if you're walking into the room and if you're getting into the room because of that deep fundamental love for spirit and virtue and character and generosity and kindness and love and peace and all of those fundamental things that I think would fall into the category of truth seeking, and that's your motivator and your reward, good on you. And that's I celebrate that, and in fact, I'm like lucky you, um, or maybe unlucky you because then it maybe came to you a little bit easy, which is another conversation, versus you know, someone more like me who had to kind of see, like, okay, well, yeah, that's more superficial and dopamine ego related, but yet that's what I needed at the time, and sometimes that is what I need, and as opposed to saying that that is just you know inherently bad, trying to find like, okay, well, luckily I didn't go down the bad version of it. Like, in other words, I didn't get addicted to it to the point where I wasn't um finding other things from it, that I wasn't learning or or what it wasn't opening me up to other facets of myself that you could argue are more virtuosic. So, again, it's that nuance thing as a human, as a teacher, as you know, as a society, can we say, like, okay, we're gonna use labels as that are somewhat pol, you know, in a on a on a spectrum or have polarity or have hierarchy, like like physical spiritual, and that's cool because that helps us then at least orient us to the world, but can we also say, well, spiritual has definite value? I think that's unargued inarguable, but so does the things that we don't call, so does the physical, and again, with a perspective to see ourselves for who we are, then choose from that where we want to go. I want to move toward a more spiritual, truth-seeking life, or and this is like this again, this is gonna piss a lot of people off, but like before I became a vegan vegetarian, I'm now pescatarian, and I was like, I don't want to stop eating meat. Um, because I grew up in Texas, and like I was like, you know, plants are sentient too. So, why what is this whole you know, how do you know that plants aren't more harmed than animals are? All those arguments, and basically, um, so back I so I used to always like defend the vet, you know, I that I didn't want that I wanted to eat meat, and I'm like, I know a lot of vegetarians who are assholes, right? Right, so we have to be careful about what we say is spiritual good or what we say is good, i.e., spiritual, and half of what we say is in a yoga realm what is bad, i.e., just purely physical, and look at what is your relationship to it. And so, again, to get way back to your point, I started in a more physical way, and then later on really started to real, you know, started to realize that this is this was reminding me of the spirituality of my childhood and how much I love talking about beauty and truth and love and peace and and and human connection. And somewhere along the way, and this again I attribute, I uh usually attribute Sally more than anybody, uh, to seeing that those two things are not as distinct as I used to think they are. That there is there is and can be just as much spirituality in a bhakasana as there is in a meditation in a you know in a siddhasana, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, I think it's really well said. I I always feel like finding the divinity in the seemingly mundane. It could be going to see your family, it could be you know dressing up and showing up to that family event um as much as it is holding uh perfect handstand. But I think uh we were quick to cast judgment on both or one or the other when uh really the like the divinity is in the like I said, the the details and that person and the sometimes the seemingly mundane day-to-day stuff. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yeah, and and you I love that's the way that I love the way you put it because oftentimes it is the mundane that is the most that is the most spiritual, or that can be the let's put it this way, that can be the most eye-opening.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Totally, absolutely. I I love it.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

And that's boy, this is you're gonna love this segue slash plug. I mean, that's what I wrote my book about because I hated meditation for the first 10 years I was teaching it, and Sally was the one who said to me, like, look, you don't have to follow like what I experience in meditation is not what you're gonna experience. Like, you you're more of a I'm as you can tell by my energy. I think I would have been diagnosed as ADD or ADHD as a kid if that would have been happening in the 80s. It was really tough for me to sit still, and so she led me over many, many years to seeing that running or working out or um anything mundane can be a meditation if done with intention and and awareness. And that's uh that you know, I was like, how does any has no one written this book yet? And that's what that's what turning inward was about was inviting people to not change their patterns, but to change their perspective, or not necessarily change your patterns, I should say.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Interesting, yeah. I love that. I um wonder if you could take me back to how you became a Peloton yoga teacher. Um, was that something that you sought out, or what was that like?

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah, no, the opposite. I joke because the one the immediate the story that comes into my head right away was the it was a long series of interviews. I mean, it was like four auditions and a bunch of like four interviews. And um the final interview was kind of a rubber stamp. And uh at the time, you know, and this was 2018, it was pre-COVID, so it was before it had gone public and before kind of the expansion that happened with Peloton during the COVID, um, during the pandemic. Um, but it was still it was pretty big company already at that point at 20 in 2018. And um yeah, not only did I not know really who they were, and by the time I had done fourth interviews, like and to be fair to myself, I had been traveling around the world for 11 years teaching yoga and had spent very little time in the United States for 11 years. Um, and so I didn't know who the Kardashians were, to be fair to Peloton. So I the fact that I didn't know what Peloton was, that puts that into perspective a little bit. And I'm sitting in the final meeting, which is perfunctory, with the president of the company, and in walks a guy, sits down and is nice, and I say hello, and like and remind me or tell me what you what your role is in the company, and he's like, I'm the CEO. Good start, yeah. I mean, I got the job, so uh, yeah, and his name is now a friend of mine. His name is John Foley, and he was one of the founders. And um, I always I always reminded John that I'm three months older than him. Nice, so whenever he would complain about stuff, I'd be like, John, I don't want to hear it. I'm older than you. Um, yeah, the a woman uh named Kristen McGee, who's a pretty well-known yoga teacher, had taken my workshop ages ago. I always give her, you know, shout-outs, blessings, you know, suprema. Um, like she called me one day, never never answered the phone, you know, even back then, didn't never answer the phone, answered it. When we're starting this thing, you might be interested. You it'll mean you'll have to come off the road, which they thought I wouldn't want to do, but I was actually excited to do. Um after 11 years, I mean, I it was 3.3 million miles in 11 years. There, 33 countries. And oftentimes in Asia and Europe, and teaching mostly yoga therapeutics trainings through a translator, which again wouldn't trade for anything, but it was it was a it was a fantastic life. I got to see the world and I got to, you know, I won't even go on with the the amazing experiences I had, but I was never home. Um, and so when you know the opportunity at the time, I again I didn't know A, what it was, and and B that it was going to be a successful company, especially yoga and meditation, because we were they were starting, they were asking me to come on and be one of the first teachers. And I I also then ran the department for five years. Um, I wasn't hired to run the department, but I was hired as an instructor, and then I was I was the oldest. So they're like, nice, do you wanna you wanna organize the taxonomy and all that? Um, and so yeah, I I was like, I jumped at it. I was like, and it's one of I I I don't know if I count you know, attributes to my mom or uh you know, to being gay and always having to like kind of change things and never get too attached or whatever, you know, our armchair psychology behind that, go for it. Um, but I I considered a an um an attribute that I'm can be like, let's do it. Yeah, you know, and like this business, and I had just signed a big contract too. I don't want to say it because it's like who knows like who's gonna hear this, but I just signed a big contract to do five years of teacher trainings with a with a big studio chain somewhere else in the world, and uh, and I kind of had to burn that bridge without you know, so there was it was it was an and it was a fairly consequential decision. However, my instincts, a I did want I did want to have spend more time at home, but my instincts were you know this is this is new, this is different, this is scary, and I love that. I was like, do something not scary, unsafe, but scary will challenge you, and it definitely did because I went from teaching like 11 years of I I can't even remember, I think the last hour and a half class I taught before 2018 was 2007. Wow, and you know, maybe or maybe not, but I was used to teaching three-hour workshops, not to mention 30-hour trainings. And um, I went to teaching that one of the auditions was a 10-minute yoga class. So like, what is that? And to be able to and to teach a five-minute piece meditation that I mean, if you've never done a meditation in five minutes, to have to do an intro, an establishment of kind of the rules, meaning for people who've never meditated before, which was at Peloton scale, was gonna be thousands of people, that this was gonna be their first meditation. So to invite them into an authentic experience, set it up so that they're not gonna think to themselves, I suck at this, create an environment that is is has that invitation, but simultaneously is um um rich and um and substantive and not you know hollow, not um axiomatic about you know, axiomatic spirituality relative to peace, and have a narrative and carry that through and give time for silence in five minutes. I did not know how to do it. I don't know if I ever really did it, but I know I got much better at it, whether it was a 10-minute vinyasa class, 20-minute vinyasa class, or a five-minute piece meditation. That skill of having to be concise, particularly for me, to be clear and to be careful, which I think is something that we I didn't really understand that much because I was always in the safety of the room, and being being careful about what you say, knowing that's gonna be at scale, not for the purpose of not getting canceled, which is often how that's interpreted, but for the purpose of being of connecting, for the purpose of like I'm just gonna I want to teach something real and substantive and not just like to really actually help someone go from A to B relative to the to peace or calm. But at the same time, not say something that those meditations are all up there now that 10 years later is not going to trigger somebody to choose your words such that you you know you thread that needle. Um that was a challenge I never foresaw, and it was a training that I will always be grateful for. Um and it was exciting and I loved it. And and and think about it even in this moment, you know, of relative, you know, having both um care and carelessness simultaneously.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah, you did a great job at it. I mean, beloved teacher um for me and for thousands, maybe millions of folks through your work at before Peloton and then at Peloton. You really hit a nice uh core that felt deeply heartfelt and careful. You know, it's it's refreshing to listen to a teacher who's you tell like they really care and will resonate. That messaging will mess resonate forever. Um, it's profound. I, you know, most teachers would think this is a dream situation to work at Peloton. You have sense left. What are the best aspects? You kind of brought up, it sounds like some really deep, heartfelt, great aspects. Maybe that is it. But if there's any other aspect that you found particularly uh great, or or what was or what was the most challenging or difficult, why move on from that?

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Um, well, the thing that I did, one of the things I love the most, I was so surprised by was how much how many intimate relationships. First of all, the the team, the team of instructors, that that I missed the most because um not everybody were you know was my best friend, but there were quite a few that we became close. It's such a unique environment. You you bond over that.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Dennis seems like a party guy. Yeah, I've hung out with Dennis before.

unknown 46:22

You have?

SPEAKER_00 46:23

I have. I have had beers with Dennis. Um, yeah, yeah. And then I've had I've interviewed Matt, but I've had I've hung out with uh Dennis. Yeah, he's a great guy.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Yeah, so Dennis, Dennis is I again a lot. I feel like I need I can't, I don't know how many times I can tell store these stories, but it uh it is one of my favorite stories where I was coming through the airport. This was a few years in, I was starting to get recognized quite a bit, and I was in Mexico uh going through security uh at the airport. And you know how like it's you're in security, like you're not thinking anything. And the woman behind me was definitely weird behind me, and I was like, okay, maybe she's just she's nervous or whatever. Uh-huh. We get to the other side and we're putting our stuff, and she and and she leans over and she's like, She was, excuse me. Are you are you Ross Rayburn from Peloton? And um, I said, Yeah, you know, yeah, I am. She said, I love Dennis Morton's yoga classes. Nice, so do I. Yeah, so I love all I love a lot of them, and there were a lot of great things, but the uh the intimacy with students, I was so surprised. Like again, the quick version of it, because I've analyzed this a little bit, was I think the wall that I naturally put up when I was teaching in person, sort of for a number of different professional but just whatever reasons, the teacher-student wall relationship, uh-huh, or let's call it a scrim or a veil. Yeah um, I didn't have that wall up because the screen was the wall. And so when students would be there in person, or now, like I think you're an example of it, or like, or maybe it's just that I'm a little bit older and more mature, but I think it is actually that it taught me to be more open and be more intimate and and in relationship with my studentslash community, and so that was kind of this paradoxical that you'd think like, oh, you're teaching through a screen and therefore you lose something. It's like I found something in terms, you know, with in in relative to that, and yeah, but at the same time, you know, I I will they Peloton changed my life for the better in in innumerable ways. But at the same time, I was really ready to go because I my husband still travels for work and I was missing everything. Um, and I wanted to kind of have that life back. The book did really well. With you know, I wanted to do other things that Peloton would have let me do, but I just I wouldn't have had time to do because it's such an all-encompassing job. Um, and so yeah, I was absolutely sad to go, but I was also kind of like when I was willing to move on to Peloton, move to Peloton, I was also I was like, you know what, Ross? Even though it's scary because it's a uh paycheck and health insurance and all that, and I was yeah, I worked for myself for 20 some odd years, and then five years of having a really nice paycheck in a company, and so letting go of that was scary. Um, but I knew it was the right thing to do, and it and I'm I can say that now, two years later, it was absolutely the right thing to do because I've never been more excited about my teaching in my life, even though I I didn't I didn't know, and it and in that two years, it's it's there have been moments where I thought I'd made a mistake. Leaving.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Yeah, that's I you know again, that's yoga, in my opinion, and meditation, you know, this um understanding what you who you are and what you want, and this dynamic relationship between stability and freedom. Right, anisara, and um yeah, and a willingness to again, anisara, let things break down, burn things to the ground sometimes, even to let something better flourish. And uh you sound like you could do uh a masterclass on that. Like a willingness, it's tough, right, for folks to take a leap, or whether it's professionally, personally, and um, you know, it sounds like the biggest turning points in your life have been this what probably felt like a leap to some capacity, but you felt in your heart that you had to do it, and uh you did it. So, man, I commend you because those things are not easy.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Thanks. I appreciate that. And there there is a part of me too that um I mean, I guess it's you could call it like a humble part of me, but honestly, it's it's also a um it's it's even it's even a bit of um like a self-check. Like humility is is not really what it is a bit in the kind of the humility realm, but it's also like, hey Ross, don't forget that there is a privilege aspect to it. That there like, for instance, if Chris, you know, I don't if I wasn't if I didn't have enough savings, or if Chris, you know, if I didn't have a partner that was making money, I don't know if I would have had that courage to leave, or name the other kind of privilege. Again, I don't it's it's not I'm not being like you know, what's it called? Like a faux, it's not a faux humility, it's that I think it's important as someone who isn't sit who's sitting in the role of the teacher in a way right now, to as I as I used to always whenever I teach teacher trainings, I was like, have an antenna for when you're put on a pedestal. Because the moment you're put on a pedestal, be the first one to step off of it before someone knocks you off of it. And so there is a bit of that of just saying, like, yes, thank you very much for recognizing that courage, but at the same time, if this is a teaching for someone, also simultaneously recognize that if it you're because of a lack of privilege, you're not safe to make that courageous leap. Don't be hard on yourself, then like again, that's a that's that's a nuanced balance of stability and freedom. Like courage of jumping into the unknown, that leap into freedom sounds great by itself, but it is always resting on some level of innate stability, whether that's your belief in yourself or your financial situation or whatever, because you still gotta be smart. Now, can you be thinking you're being smart and you're actually just being stuck? Of course, but I think making sure that being when you're saying something sweet to me about that leap, it's important, like for people, in my opinion, to hear that it's never simple, you know, and to give yourself permission for it to not be simple as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

I I do appreciate that is it's never lends itself to simplicity, it's a mag multifactorial world and life, and um you've recently put out a lot in public on how you've evolved, how you practice yoga, how you teach yoga. You know, after a long time at this, things are evolving for you even today. And I'm curious what that next evolution, right? There's one, there's a couple of things you probably experienced this, but I've somebody gave me the advice, is probably good advice.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

But they're like a couple things you don't ever bring up in yoga class, age, weight, looks, you know, those sort of obvious things, but that was not meant to be listen, and as that's why that's why I call say I'm in my 56th year, it's that it's that part of me that believes, and and this is this is a cool discussion, I think, to have at some point, and like we don't have to have it now, but it is actually a Kali practice. Um so for a lot of people who, if you don't know, Kali is one of the the the goddesses. Um she in in I revere her so much because she's the one that's you has tongue sticking out, eyes bulging out, skulls, weapons. She's usually seen as scary, but the way I was taught that Kali represents the diminution or the decline, the death that we practice at the end of every yoga class in corpse pose. Like corpse pose shavasana is not morbid, it's not something to be feared, like Kali is not meant to be feared, it's a practice of the inevitable, and that in the practice of the corpse and in the practice of Kali, um, you actually don't invite it, but you practice it, and therefore, on this micro level, you start to become macro free, yes, and or that's the hope. And so, my little by saying the year, which is actually more truthful because when you turn 55, you're finishing your 55th year. This is like my little sermon. This is me now on the Ted Top at the pulpit, yeah. You're finishing your 55th year, so therefore, you're the moment you turn 55, you're starting your 56th year, so it's more truthful to say I'm in my 56th year, but to most people, they just hear that as you're embracing a higher number, which is bad, and it's it's kind of my little shivasana practice, and so I think I think of it as like kind of important, you know, to do what I think was the genesis of the question, which is how do we embody this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Yeah, I love that. I um it in any other what other ways are you reconsidering how you look at yoga these days? I mean, I think we got a pretty clear picture from just hearing your responses already, but is I just want to make sure I gave you an opportunity and and maybe selfishly to to know where you stand. Um if is anything else. I know we like I said, I I think it shines through with your responses a lot, I I feel as a teacher, but I just want to make sure if if you had anything else you wanted to um add and how you're evolving or changing your perspective on um on yoga.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

Oh cool.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

Well, I mean, I'll I'll take this in in two ways. Like the the the first one, I'll the second one I'll go the the one that's more relevant that's more rel related to what I'm doing professionally, I'll I'll take second. Okay, the one that is more philosophical or um well yeah, just just more broad. Um is I've I don't exactly know when I started to think this or say this or which teacher, maybe it was a multitude of a bunch of teachers that led me toward this, which is the embrace that pretty much anything can be yoga. Um you know, I was I don't again, I I I I we'd have to like spend a much a lot of a lot more time on the psychology behind like my allergy to this is yoga and this is not. Um, and I certainly understand where that comes from, both you know, the like when the appropriate, when the very complex and difficult conversation about appropriation. Um, you know, and I think it's a I think it's an important conversation. I usually try to frame it as, you know, especially being a white guy who has studied for but who has studied for many, many years, um most facets of yoga, meaning whether you think of that as the eight limbs, or you think about it as you know purely philosophical and non-physical, uh, or you think of it as purely physical. Um, you know, I can I can go toe-to-toe. I think I can, you know, I say this not self-aggrandizingly, but I can go toe-to-toe with you know, someone who teaches biomechanics only and alignment only, and I can go, you know, toe-to-toe with someone who is, you know, steeped in Samkhya, Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Giant, you know, Jainism, and and the whole the whole list. Um, and again, I say that not to like be a little bit of a bully with what I know, but to to to say that I believe in all of those things, uh, but yet I'm a white guy, so I understand that why someone would say talk about like appropriation, for instance, uh but I would hope that they would see that it's an that it's appreciation, and that I am usually not appropriating, and I definitely don't want to appropriate when say I inject myself into a conversation, that is maybe a moment when I actually do often hand the mic to um someone from Southeast Asia who is from Southeast Asian, you know, Desi um herit has Desi heritage, um, versus saying, like, you know what, no, I actually have an experience with this, and I can speak to the Indian tradition on this topic. Um so that is an important conversation to that to say, like, yes, something should be and not be yoga, but at the same time, I also look at it very simply and say yoga is about union. And if you are uniting action with intention, it's hard to say that that's not some version of yoga, and in my opinion, it is often high yoga, or at least high spirituality, when you can stand in front of you know, which is something I this will be my segue, professionally want to do, which is I'm a huge Dallas Cowboy fan, and boy, stand in stand stand in front of you know the cowboys and say, you know, when when it's fourth down, or what you know, when it's third down or fourth down in the Super Bowl, and you know, like the the moment of of greatest tension, and you take a breath and you hold yourself mentally, physically, and spiritually in a beautiful way, so that your action is imbued and um so that your action is in is imbued with love, which is not something you would correlate with a football situation, but that that actual that that kind of love for yourself and your teammates and the the art of sport, that that love in that crucial moment, if you can just take that one breath, that that's the thing that's gonna help you not choke Dallas Cowboys and actually win another Super Bowl, versus not thinking of that moment as having any yoga potential, and you go into the pattern of compression that does make you choke and not play at your highest. And for me, that's almost more interesting yoga is to teach, like, how do we bring intention, intentionality into, and this is the segue into what I'm actually doing, into our posture, our mind, and our breath moment to moment, day to day, anytime, anywhere, so that our yoga is not necessarily about class or pose, but it is about actualizing the best version of you in a moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:05

I love that. I am an Eagles fan, so I hope you don't ever teach them. I love that that's what you got from that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

So no, no, that to me is the best moment. Like, from like all of that, I and I seriously do love that about you so much that you're like, that's all great, Roz, but F you, I'm an Eagles fan.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

So I hope you never get to teach D Mag. I did teach the Eagles way back when, and they won the Super Bowl that year, but it was so okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

Stop.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Go birds. Are you serious? I mean, I taught them a little bit. I taught the trainers, yeah. I taught the trainers more so.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

But you are now my idol. Like, seriously, like full stop. I'm not kidding. That's that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

Sorry, it was a very heartfelt message, and I just kind of derailed your no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

Let's let's go with this. This is football. It's this is always more important. Anyone who doesn't think this is more important, um, this shows you how much we really do have in common. Um, I always root for NFC East. So, like, I if if the cow like that's the one thing that we can share. Like, if the Cowboys are not playing, I I root for NFC East.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

We do not share that in common, actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

You know Jen Sherman from telephone.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yeah, she's a big Eagles fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Oh, yeah, yeah, she's huge. Like, you we have to connect you with Jen.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

Yeah, oh, I'd love to. Yeah, yeah. That's so yeah, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

Sorry, sorry to everybody. Sorry to everybody out there who's just like, what are they talking? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

No, that's great. No, I I mean I do love the sentiment. It's I I so I think you and I are in similar wavelengths with our thoughts. Uh, it is some capacity in that. And um, it's I really, I really do love it. And um I think it's a really meaningful pursuit to have that sort of self-awareness to teach it to facilitate that for others too is just you know, it's uh um yeah, it's a lot of responsibility, but it just seems like a very meaningful. I can't think of anything more meaningful um of a pursuit. So I you know, I appreciate you sharing that and uh telling us where you're at. Are you are you actually gonna try to teach the cowboys?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

I mean, it's yes, it's it's I I put it out there all the time. I mean, I I haven't I have a few connections, but I haven't um I haven't pulled though like mixed metaphors. I haven't pulled those strings yet. So basically, the in the two years since I left Peloton, um a lot of it was spent on dealing with some personal, some family stuff, which I didn't expect. So that slowed down my uh pro my transition of like what I'm gonna what I'm gonna do next. Um also I worked with an executive coach who was fantastic in helping me crystallize like what does this next chapter look like? Um but the luckily I came to a clear understanding with her help and with Chris's help, uh, my husband and and and many friends just to realize that I do love teaching people about posture, about not mindfulness, but about being smart and using your mind well, um, and about breath. And so it was crystal again, it was crystallized down into what I call strategic posture, uh posture with intention, helping Dak recognize when his posture is the problem, um, mental clarity, as opposed to clearing your thoughts, and then impact breath, which is using and choosing a breath that will impact the situation to move you to a place where you need to be slowing down your breath when you're nervous, like when you're on a date or you're about to interview, and using breath to impact the moment. And so it's short exercises and long seminars and ways to integrate that into your life in a moment and to your life over the course of your life. Um and it isn't still now developing, you know, into how does what does that look like for say um teaching a seminar at a um you know to a marginalized community, say trans youth, since it's Pride Month when we're recording this, you know, uh, to go into an environment where say trans youth need to be um uplifted, or going into um a C-suite and helping them with leadership and creativity and and how posture, mind, and breath can can help those things. Um, or you know, in an athletic environment, you know, I've how I I just I love sports so much, you know, and how to how to to to help a dancer who is an athlete or an uh football player is an athlete use their posture, their mind, and their breath to both affirm and elevate their performance. So I actually refer to myself now more as a performance strategist than a yoga teacher, but I still call it Ross Rayburn Yoga. Like I have a substack that I'm putting out a lot of things now, which is Ross Rayburn Yoga, and my website is Ross Rayburn Yoga. I still call it yoga because it is imbued with yogic philosophy and does include meditation and ideas from you know from the different lineages and and teachings. So I think it's gonna continue to be called yoga because but we'll see. But that's sort of what I what I'm doing now.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

Nice, wonderful. Uh sounds great, Ross. You know, you're you have a gift for meeting people where they're at, the audience, and um a real gift for feeling uh heard by you, and also to um you have a hit a nice chord in your teaching and just talking to you of bringing in universal bigger thoughts and then honing it into like a very focused point as a really pleasure, a real pleasure to get to talk to you and get to know you a little bit better. Um, and very heartfelt. You know, you can feel you're being honest and truthful, and um it really shines through with uh just speaking with you. And so it means the world to me to have this time with you. I um I feel like I could talk to you for another hour.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

At least, right? At least, at least, and I mean the good news is is we can.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

And I mean we'll stop recording, but like now we're friends, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:17

Right. I love that. Yeah, that means a lot to me. And um, yeah, I really will take you up on chatting with you more, and um, yeah, it's great to have another friend. Great to have you on. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:30

Practice together too. Like, what's definitely if you're if I'm up there, you're down here, like we'll like do do a couple of uh do do some asana together.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

I would love that. Yeah, I need more of that in my life. I've somehow managed to only teach, you know how that goes, and then sometimes teach in isolation online, but then sometimes in person. But it's nice to be alongside uh fellow teacher and just be in conversation. Uh, there's a third thing, a value add, and that would mean the world to yeah, to do that with you sometime.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:05

Thanks, Jake. I I agree when I would 100% love that as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

Beautiful, Ross. I I think we've got your information out there, but is there anything else we want to put out there for folks before I let you go?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:19

Yeah, I mean, thank you for saying that. I just just to reiterate, uh, so the primary uh social media uh Substack is is my primary um portal right now. Um, it's new, but it's exciting. Um, because the meditations and videos and conversations can exist there. So that's uh Substack Ross Webern Yoga, and then Instagram is Ross Rayburn Yoga, website is Ross Rayburn Yoga, all pretty pretty easy to find.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:49

Wonderful. I will link that for folks for those who are brand new to Ross, go check him out. He's doing exceptionally great things.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

Um, this is just a taste of the the personality and uh and take on up to you and and say that it's it's because the the fun part of for those of you that can't see, it's we talked about mics earlier. And this is the mic that I can use my sleep meditation on.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:15

So I'm already I'm already dozing off a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

Well, I as as another friend of mine says, like, Ross, you've been putting me to sleep with your stories for years.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:28

Sounds like you have great friends. You that don't take yourself too crazy seriously, right? That's so great. That's uh I love it. So yeah, I did check out the Substack, folks. Go check it out. All this stuff lives there if you want the meditations and to get to learn more about you and your writings and musings and all of the wonderful things that you're doing. And so, so yeah, I appreciate it, Ross. I'd love to do this again sometime.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:55

You bet, Jay. Thank you so thank you so much again, and thanks to everybody out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

All right, take care, man. Thanks for tuning in. If you found my conversation with Ross to be informative, if it got you thinking and inspired, please give the podcast a like, write a comment, and share it with everyone you know. You could find me on all social media platforms, especially Instagram at Yoga with Jake, and on my website, yogawithjake.com. Until next time, take care of the thing.