SPEAKER_00 0:00

On this episode, I believe sports can be a wonderful avenue, perhaps the most effective vehicle, even, for kids and young adults to develop self-confidence work ethic, along with mental and physical strength and realizing your own potential. That's just some of the many benefits I personally received from my time as an athlete. While I ended up being successful enough to reach my goal of competing as a Division I wrestler, there was also a dark, negative side to sports that I had to overcome later as an adult and still have to be mindful of, such as being extremely self-critical, to the point it's challenging to move forward with important decisions in life. I can still remember certain coaches continuously driving home the idea that I wasn't good enough, the way I was reluctant to attack or hit a certain move in wrestling, how I shot the ball in soccer, or if I lost, the reaction from coaches involved would send me into a mental downward spiral. So how can one be sure to receive the undeniable benefits of sport while avoiding the mental and psychological mistakes that can not only make you perform worse, but haunt you after you've retired and moved into the real world? How can someone be both a fierce competitor and have self-compassion in sport? How can athletes develop mindfulness and be encouraging to themselves in competitive sports where traditionally the mindset has been to be self-critical or a perfectionist? Joining me to discuss this topic is Dr. Ashley Kutcher, a mindset coach, educator, and speaker who helps athletes quiet their inner critic, handle pressure with poise, and bounce forward after mistakes. She is a former collegiate basketball player with a PhD in educational psychology, bringing both lived experienced and research-backed tools to help athletes build lasting confidence in themselves and their performance. You can learn more about Ashley's work at failbettertraining.com. I'm Jake Penistevich, and this is the Yoga with Jake podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Hi, Jake.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, it's good to meet you too. Thanks for the invite.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Big thanks to our friend Mika Shaw. And um Ashley, I was wondering if you could tell me just a little bit about yourself, your background, and your work to get started.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, sure. So I uh grew up in Utah. I was an athlete my whole life. I played basketball in college in Colorado, and then I came to the University of Texas at Austin to get my PhD in educational psychology. Um, I had the pleasure of working with Dr. Kristen Neff, who is the person who coined self-compassion in academia and found a way to measure it. And so my real passion was one, growing up as an athlete, I was very highly perfectionistic. I was successful in my support, in my sport. I had high fear of failure at the same time. And when I was first introduced to this concept of mindfulness and compassion in my undergrad studying psychology, it just flipped my whole world around. It was so different from what I had learned in sport culture, which was the no pain, no game, grind it out, hold your emotions in. And then I was learning about, you know, mistakes didn't have to be good or bad. Emotions weren't good or bad. It could just be a data point, which was so new to me. And then when I was introduced to this idea of compassion where you might actually be encouraging to yourself rather than incredibly critical, I was so hooked. And so I wanted to go study with Kristen. I wanted to bring this idea of self-compassion into sport because even though I was totally invested when I first learned about it, I was still resistant and hesitant to do it at the same time. And so I really wanted to find a way to bring self-compassion to athletes in a way that reduced some of those barriers to language or practice. And so um I created a resilience program for athletes called Reset and studied it, tested it. There's been more studies on it uh recently, which is very exciting to me. And now that's what I do. I I figure out in my own private practice, um, it's called Fail Better Training, consult with athletes from a variety of different levels in sports and help them handle setbacks in a way that supports their well-being and their performance at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

All right. Wonderful. Um how what is self-compassion? Uh, if you were to uh give us a definition um when it pertains to sport.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yeah. So Kristen's classic definition or the kind of, I don't know, the baseline that that you might get is treating yourself like you would treat a friend. Now there's a little bit of a caveat here because sometimes with athletes, when you say like, how do you treat your teammates? sometimes they're overly kind and they don't hold them accountable. And so when I'm working with athletes, it's really finding this balance of being honest and being encouraging or some version of that. You're holding yourself accountable, you're reaching for high standards, you're also being encouraging and kind to yourself. Rather than what we might see as the opposite of self-compassion might be self-criticism. Um, and so it's really that. How do you treat yourself when you're struggling?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

When you say treat yourself, do you mean how you like self-talk to yourself, how you physically treat yourself, or what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah, great question. Uh both. Yeah, I think I tend to lean on the self-talk side as a starter point. Um, you know, kind of we have this inner dialogue all the time. I like to think of we have our inner critic and we have our inner coach. And so that inner critic is the tone tends to be pretty negative, right? It might be the, I don't know, you just made a mistake and you're like, you suck, you're terrible. What are you doing out here? Versus this inner coach might be a little bit more understanding. You know, it's okay, everyone makes mistakes, let's make some adjustments. So there is that the treat yourself of in terms of your how are you talking to yourself? It can also be physically as well. Um, I was just talking to someone recently, and I I know that so many people can relate to this. This is like a back in the day, people would put a rubber band on their wrist, and when they would, you know, they're trying to change their habits and when they'd mess up, they'd flick themselves, which is like you're inflicting pain as a way to try to change. And I and I get the concept, right? It's it's meant to be this moment of pause and intention. But I think even with that, physically, how are you treating yourself? Are you literally, is there physical harm, which unfortunately happens sometimes, or are you taking care of yourself? Maybe you're going for a walk when you're feeling really activated or frustrated, or if it's in the middle of a performance like a basketball game or something, you just made a mistake. Are you hanging your head and are you pouting? Or are you able to, you know, put your shoulders back, put your head up? You're trying to communicate with your teammates and and um you know take accountability for what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Interesting. Okay. And so how how do you practice this? Um, do you use sort of any sort of tools to start to develop self-compassion and and what does that look like? Does that is that something that folks can train? And um yeah, how do you how does one develop it?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah, it's a great question. I think there's um multiple avenues. One, I think it starts with a mindset shift. You first have to believe and and recognize the ways in which your criticism is not serving you, and maybe the ways that it is, right? We don't want to completely eliminate criticism. We want to be honest with ourselves. It's just that extra harshness, the demeaning tone, right? Or words that we might be using. So I think sometimes it can just be a mindset shift, this understanding of uh, you know, in these ways, this criticism is not serving me well. Maybe I can do something differently. And so there's this like in the moment practice, which could also be proactive or retroactive. A lot of times when I'm working with athletes, it's hey, what's a difficult situation you faced recently? What's when you when you aren't performing your best, what's going on for you? And so maybe it's making a mistake, they're underperforming, maybe it's a teammate or coach criticizing them. And then it's using that scenario just and you can do this whether you're working with, you know, a mindset coach, mental performance coach, or you could do this on your own, where you're like, here's the situation, here's how I typically respond. I'm missing shots, I put my head down, I say you're not good enough. That's the criticism. And then it's just shifting. If I was talking to my teammate, what would I say to them? I would say, Hey, it's fine. Everyone misses shots, it's not that big of a deal. Just like get back on defense, right? And so it could be whether you're just thinking that you go through that scenario. It could be journaling where you're actually writing the reframed thoughts. Here's the unhelpful thoughts, here's some helpful thoughts, could be a really simple kind of kind of you know, a journal practice. It could be more um like visualization or meditation where you're imagining yourself in a scenario and you're like, how do I want to respond physically? What do I want it to look like? What do I want my internal dialogue to be like? And you just imagine yourself doing that, right? And so as you practice in those kinds of ways, it becomes easier in that moment of struggle to change the way that you're relating to yourself and those around you.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Okay. And are athletics a particularly difficult or unique um arena to um implement self-compassion and mindfulness? And um often I feel in most athletics, there's a push towards not pausing and responding mindfully. It's more, you know, react, no, in that moment. Um especially as you get into higher levels. Do you find it particularly challenging to implement this within athletics and with athletes where you're almost trained to not think?

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Like yeah, it's such a good question because when you ask athletes when you're performing at your best, what are you thinking about? They say nothing. Right? They're like, I'm not, I'm actually not thinking. And that's when we're in a flow state. Here's the thing though, how often are you actually in a flow state? And so I think do we want to get to this place where yeah, we can perform without thinking, we're confident, we're just rolling with the punches 100%. And also, this is not gonna happen all the time. So when that's not happening and you are thinking, what are you gonna do about it? And a lot of athletes will just try to push the thoughts away, they'll try to push the emotions away, saying, Well, when I perform my best, I'm not thinking. But there's a difference between being fully engaged in what you're doing and fully present, and batting away whatever critical thoughts. You're not actually present then. You're just like, I don't know, throwing the boomerang and it keeps coming back and hit you in the face, and you got to pick it up again and throw it. So um it it can be challenging in that sense, you know, of like understanding when is it helpful to be mindfully pausing and when you're just mindfully going. And and I think that depending on the sport, each sport is a little bit different. Generally, it's like pretty fast paced, except for maybe golf. You got a lot of thinking time. Or softball, baseball, like it's challenging for a different reason. But you know, the sports like soccer or track or basketball, it's it's go, go, go. And so it implementing those pauses gives you a chance to be intentional with how you're performing, what you're thinking, how you're responding to things, instead of just hoping that whatever you've trained up to that point is gonna carry you through.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Awesome. And do you um do you find that athletes are um receptive to this practice? I feel at a certain level, like the best athletes have their shortest memories if they're you know down by a couple points and there's five seconds left. It's not gonna benefit anyone if you're moping or fiercely angry. I mean, maybe you could channel that depending on the sport, but often you find you lose control over your emotions and perform worse. Did you find uh athletes are seeing the benefits, or are they you know convinced when they are able to have more ice in their veins and and perform better and more uh at their best when it's uh matters most in the last seconds, maybe when they're when they're down?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you bring up a good point because you mentioned kind of like channeling the the anger or frustration sometimes, which it can give you a little energy boost for a moment, it's but it's not a long-term strategy. Like you just I've had some you know track athletes that I work with where they were running really well for a little while because there were some things going on in their life and they were so angry. But then what happens when the anger goes away? You can't just like, you know, and then you're just angry in your life. No one, no one wants to be angry all the time. So uh, you know, having that can give you a little bit of a boost, but it's also incredibly, incredibly draining. So, yes, the short-term memory is is really important. And I think, you know, there's when I'm working with athletes, I honestly I rarely use the word self-compassion, like very maybe 1% of the time. Um, because there can be some resistance to it, depending on depending on the athlete, because it's just in sport culture, we're not down to be compassionate, right? We're meant to be like tough and and just like power through it. But when you ask athletes, you know, how is this criticism working for you or not, they they pretty much know that being really negative is not helping them. And they recognize that dwelling in their mistakes is not helping them. The challenge is they don't know what else to do. And there's sometimes some either like uh guilt where you know I'm letting my team down. And if I don't show that I'm angry or upset, then they're gonna think I don't care, which isn't really true, right? Teammates usually want you to just forget about it, move on, make and make an adjustment. We don't want to just move forward, right? If we if we just say move on, move on, move on, we miss this really important component of making some kind of performance adjustment. Then you're just gonna keep making the same mistake. But on the flip side, we don't want to overcrept and just try to fix everything all the time because then you also miss out on taking care of your emotions and and well-being. So I think that athletes recognize that if they could reset after mistakes and just move on, it would help them massively, but just not quite sure how to do that.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Okay. And do you work with, you said you work with a variety of athletes, but do you is there anyone, any specific like level that you hone in or specialize in on? Or do you work mostly with youth athletes or college pro athletes, or is it just kind of a mix and and which sports? Or do you see a trend that you're you're finding? Maybe a teammate refers you, or or what's who are what's the population you work with?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, primarily high school and college athletes. Um, I've got some that are above that and some that are you know younger, younger than that, um, as young as like nine years old. But I would say on average, kind of that 14, 14 and up is the range that I'm working with. And I mean, really a variety of sports from soccer, track, basketball, these team sports, tennis. And then you've got uh, and those are individuals. Well, and then also I've worked with figure skating and cheerleading, and so there's just like a quite quite a variety, and each each sport you know has their own little culture. Each sport has a little bit, you know, they're a little bit unique. There's some differences between individual sports and team sports in terms of you know pressure and things like that, but uh really from across sports, with like I said, this this idea of resilience and how are you facing setbacks, they all need it, they all want it, and it's it's valuable no matter the sport or really the age.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Do you find that you need to maybe speak with the adults in the room as opposed to the kids? Because I'm thinking, you know, as in someone who was in athletics from the time I was five and through college, I was, you know, echoes of coaches from the past were just like demons hard to uh overcome that negative voice, like never good enough, never good enough. Um, like you said, there's components of that that were beneficial for the for adjustments or getting better. And then there's definitely instances where you know it affected me negatively. So any uh what how do you handle even in college? You know, my my college coach got arrested shortly after I started that's the level of uh negative behavior and culture that I was up against. What do you do in those sort of instances when you've got a kid or even like a college athlete who's got a coach? And I've spoken with like Olympic athletes whose coaches they've been very vocal about an Olympic level for abusive and um whether that's emotionally or physically, uh how do you how do you tackle something like that?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah, really, really great point because there's limitations. If you're in a in a system that is not conducive to your emotional well-being, physical well-being, you're limited in what you can do, right? So I I am always starting with the individual. Can I resource them? Can we give them some tools of how do I handle some criticism? And with that, sometimes the best thing is to like change teams, right? So first it's kind of like, can I work to what degree can I work within this system that might not be super great for me, right? Can I communicate with my coach and say, hey, when you cuss me out, it's actually not doing what you think it is, right? This might be a little bit better. And that totally depends on the relationship. It is so unique to each situation, but I do think it's valuable to resource the individual. That said, you've got to be able to change the system. And sometimes we can change the system, you know. Sometimes I've got these uh, you know, high school or younger athletes where the parents are willing to meet with me as well, because the parents have a huge influence on the kid, right? The kid can be as resourced as they want, but if every time they get in the car ride, they're getting chewed out for how they performed, it's just gonna be very, very challenging for them to really grow because it's like gears working against each other. And so we want the gears to work with each other. And if we can um meet with the coaches or meet with the parents, you're gonna see a much bigger difference than just working at the individual level. So uh yes, I think both are very important. Any youth athlete under 18, I'm also meeting with a parent at least one time because the parents need resources too. It's frustrating for them. They don't know, they don't know what they're doing either, right? We're all just doing the best we can. And I think um coaches as well. I will say one challenge is that um coaches, sometimes parents as well, can be really resistant to change. Um, that and that's an overgeneralization. I recognize there's a lot of coaches who really are eager to learn and want to support their athletes, and there can be some of these um kind of power dynamic barriers where the coach is like, this is how I've done it for 30 years. This is just the athletes gotta deal with it, and it I'm not the problem, they're the problem, right? These kids in this generation. So um there can definitely be some barriers to working together, but I do think it's possible. I've seen it. Um, and sometimes, you know, the best thing is to, if it's really an abusive environment, is to get out.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Okay. And do you find it particularly challenging in team sports? I feel I played soccer and gravitated toward towards wrestling, mainly because you know, uh the politics involved and who decides who starts and when and who uh they both prefer, it seems like even as a uh a kid or a person, just seems uh be messy. Whereas like with wrestling, with me and these three other guys, if I beat them, I start. If I don't I don't, but at least it felt as if there was more, I won't say fair, but there was less gray area. I um I have plenty of friends now with kids who are in youth level sports and it's gotten here's your take on this, but it's gotten like pay-to-play, basically, and they're sending their kids all over to play lacrosse or hockey and spending a ton of money only to have, you know, a coach decide, you know, who starts and who doesn't, and there's some level of subjectivity there. Does that present a particularly challenging uh dynamic? Or I'm assuming you know most sports are in this team uh kind of culture, but but how do you um how do you approach that? Or or is do you feel as if it's a more difficult sometimes situation when it involves more of a team sport?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

It can be um a little, you know, when we add more people, it gets a little more complicated because humans are complicated. So I think, yes, there can be some unique pressures in team sports. For example, you didn't quite mention this, right? But it's like this pressure of I'm letting my whole team down, right? Or there's the team dynamics of so-and-so starting over me, or the coach is picking this, or whatever, right? There it can get um just it can get a little messy 100%. And in the individual sports, they have uh also unique pressures where it's all on them. They have no one to blame. The soccer, basketball, volleyball, they can always blame somebody else and release some pressure that way. Whereas the kids in an individual sport, uh, it can become not necessarily even more tied to their identity. Athletes tend to take on this athlete identity quite a bit. Um, but when they mess up, it it can be really overwhelming for them at times. Uh, but I also have heard a lot of individual sport athletes that are like, I'm glad it's just on me. And so yeah. So uh definitely when working with teams, the team dynamics, the playing time, it's it's always gonna come up. And for sure it's a big challenge because there's limitations in your control. And we as humans really like having control. So when there's things that are outside of that, it can become challenging for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Okay. Um how does this start? Like, how does one start with a conversation with you? Or are athletes more receptive to like, okay, we've had this conversation, give me point A to point B, something actionable to start right now, like homework or a practice. Um, what how do you how do you start with these?

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah, good question. Yeah, if it's an individual session, well, besides getting to know them a little bit, right, as humans, because athletes are not just athletes, they're humans. And so just starting on a more personal level, getting to know the person. And then usually we go to I like to say, like, what's going well and what's challenging right now? You know, what what are your strengths, what are your weaknesses? Let's just kind of get that um conversation going. Because when we think about mindset training, it's not just about fixing all these problems. Like that's not it, right? It's here are my goals, how do I reach them? How do I improve my focus? How do I improve my emotion regulation? And part of that is recognizing what you are already doing well, and can we maximize that even more? So I think that's a really important part of the conversation because there's a lot that every athlete is already doing really well. Then we do tend to go to what's what are the roadblocks? What's coming up for you right now? Um, a lot of it usually is around emotion regulation, right? Or they're stuck, they're not performing well, they're not quite sure why. And so making sure we understand what's going on. And for the athlete, it's starting with awareness, I think is really important, right? So when you're faced with this challenge with a coach who's not playing you or criticizing you, or when you're not performing well, what's showing up for you mentally, right? What's your self-talk like? What emotions are coming up for you, and then behaviorally as well, like how what's going on in your body? And then we can take any one of those things, right? We can go from a self-talk lens. I I tend to lean that way. I like going with the self-talk route because it's very tangible and practical. And then same with the emotions, right? What are you feeling? Where what shifts do you want to be making? If you're feeling really frustrated and angry and shut down, where would you like to get to? Is it is it feeling more confident and moving forward and feeling um, you know, regulated or relaxed? And then behaviorally, we can work from that sense too. Are you feeling really tense and tight? Are you feeling heavy? Are you feeling empty? And how do you want to feel? And then what strategies can we get you there? So um, you know, each and the performance coach is gonna be a little bit different. I think that generally speaking, we really like practical things. And so I want to make sure that my athletes, when they leave a session with me, they know what to do. And sometimes they're coming up with their own solutions, right? It's by asking good questions and helping them uh let letting their brain kind of work it out. And then, of course, there are you know evidence-based strategies and practical things that we can do in session and out of session that are homework type things, right? Things that things that we can follow up on. Um, and I will say that this the secondary piece to this too is that depending on the challenge, like athletes who have just been injured and and they're experiencing or some trauma, right? They're having a coach who's abusing them. Those conversations aren't like fix-it conversations. That is holding space. We're listening, we're we're we're witnessing the pain, we're we're just letting them really talk about it and process through it before we get into let's make some changes and adjustments. So it depends on the challenge, but those are kind of the the routes.

unknown 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Do you find do you find trends with that? You know, do you find that a lot of um athletes want some talk therapy, at least someone to talk to? Like is or what sort of trends do you find?

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Totally. I think, and you know, it can it can depend on the athlete. Um, but honestly, whether they're 12 years old or they're 55 years old, yeah, but like we want human connection. We want and and and so much processing can happen through talking, right? It's like our we're pretty freaking smart. Sometimes we're dumb, but like our brains, our brains are pretty powerful. And so if we allow there to be some space to talk through things, it really is amazing what you can find for yourself. And sometimes that can happen through journaling, but I will say, you know, like even me, it's like coaches need coaches, therapists need therapists, because it can be a lot to be both the client and the practitioner, you know. And so um, you know, it can be really helpful, even if you are resourced, even if you do know psychology, even if you've read the books in the podcast, like there's just something about having a human conversation with someone who has a different perspective, can see things a little bit differently than you. Um, one of my good friends, Heidi, she works with injured athletes primarily, and she talks about needing label readers. When you're stuck inside the bottle, you can't read the label, it's backwards, it's distorted. And so you need people outside who can see your situation a little bit differently or a little more clearly. And I think that's the value of having you know, someone in your life, a therapist, to coach um, someone like that to just help you sift through whatever's going on.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah, I I'm always shocked looking back that no one, whether coach or parent, probably both should have at least like heard me out as an athlete. It was kind of always suggest or coach, which probably in good, well-intentioned or criticized primarily, though, is and be negative. Um do you think it's worth coaches and parents to do just to check in? What do you think of this situation? Or if you were in my students, what would you say to yourself or something like that? I think in college we had like end of the year kind of um debrief kind of situation, though you know that was not as effective as maybe I would.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

The theory was nice, but maybe uh the execution was not great.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Yeah, yeah. So is that something you think coaches and parents might be um find a great benefit in just hearing their athletes out their cut their kid out?

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah, definitely. I think with parents, especially. Uh I'm gonna add a little caveat here. Well, yes, okay, let me start this. With parents, yes. Sometimes the parents are like, I don't know what to say to my kid. Uh you know, I try to encourage them and they get mad, I try to criticize them, they get mad, I can't do anything right. Yeah, and and then when I have a conversation with the athlete, and I'm like, hey, what's helpful that your parents do? What's not helpful? They know the answers. The kid knows the answers. You just gotta ask them. And I would say, ask them in a normal situation, not right after the game, not right before the game, maybe not even like a few hours, just like kind of a random time, be like, hey, I really want to help you when you're playing. Like, what what's helpful and what's not helpful? Can we talk about it? The athlete gets to opt into that conversation. Yeah, totally. We can talk about it now or later or after dinner. And then the parent, you got to be regulated too. That's why it's helpful to also have a conversation with someone like me, right? Or or therapist or something, so you can process through your own stuff because it's hard to get feedback from anybody. And so then you can actually listen to the kid, they they know the answers. Um you have to have a good relationship with them though, right? If you don't have a good relationship, they're not gonna open up, they're just gonna be like, oh, it's fine, or don't say anything, or whatever. Um, and for some kids who maybe have a little bit less awareness, they might need to process it out with someone else first before they feel comfortable sharing, which is such a it's honestly such a privilege. It's one of my favorite things is to be able to help the individual, help that athlete process through what is helpful, what do I need? Um, because they don't always know exactly, right? It can be a little confusing. Uh, like I had a 12-year-old kid who was like, after I make a mistake and my parents say, It's okay, you got this, I get mad. And he's like, But that's weird because I don't want them to yell at me, but they're trying to encourage me, but I'm feeling upset. And then I, you know, me, I'm like, cool, yeah, we can talk about that. Like, why do you think that is? And and what would be helpful and give some ideas, right? Because for him, it was feeling like it's not okay to make a mistake. What would actually be helpful is is if they just say, like, um, I know that's hard, or or say nothing, right? So anyway, it can be helpful for the athlete to process, it can be helpful for the parents to process and then and then um come together, I would say is extremely valuable.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah, I it sounds like it's something I've heard folks talk about couples therapy that, you know, sometimes it's just nice to have uh mediary. I think one way, I see your point of view, but I see it this way. But let's talk to the professional and see what they it's sometimes maybe just a nice way to kind of clear the air and figure out a right path forward.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah. And I think it also it just creates a safe place where it's like we are intentionally doing this, we are having this type of conversation, we want it to be productive. And because it is tricky, you know, with like parent-child dynamics or coach athlete dynamics, there are other pieces at play, and so it can be nice to have just kind of a third-party person who who genuinely cares and wants to help and and has the expertise to do that.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Great. And you mentioned developing self-awareness, and um, this is something I think is a superpower. Now, as a retired athlete, I got very into yoga. I think because of this, um, I think so much of athletics, like I mentioned, at least in my experience, is like push away the hurt, keep going. And uh, you know, you can't just go on just pure raw emotion. And so you you kind of learn how to numb things and just keep keep rolling with the punches. And um, but I I've found it particularly challenging post-athletics to develop this, to push on the self-awareness button to allow myself to feel things again. Do you have tools to develop that? You mentioned journaling, um, conversation, like therapy. Um for me, it was I think because athletics was so physical, like yoga felt like a really great tool to connect the two, the body and then the mind. You know, I felt like to penetrate the mind, I had to do some sort of movement. Um but do you how do you uh start with athletes and developing and just starting to notice uh that's this self-awareness?

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Yeah, I think everything you just you just mentioned, right, is yoga can be a great one because they're moving their body at the same time. I think, and again, we're generalizing here, there's there's some athletes who can for sure sit and meditate for 30 minutes and they're totally fine, right? And there's a lot where um they just tend to struggle with that. Maybe it's a lack of understanding what meditation means, but um, you know, athletes tend to be a little fast-paced, you know, kind of go, go, go. And so, and again, that's not everyone, but um so I think that there's a lot of a power in yoga where you're you're moving your body and it can kind of help focus your mind or having more focused meditations that are specifically targeted at that, like progressive muscle relaxation, for example, where it's a little bit more active, can be some good starting points that are a little bit more guided, more journal prompts or conversations, you know, can be can be a huge one. I I know I know when I was first learning about emotion regulations, I was reading, can't remember the book now, but it was like you feel feelings in your body. That's why they're called feelings. And I was like, what? No way, are you sure? And then I started paying attention, you know, when I was feeling different emotions, and I was like, oh my goodness, you're right. You know, when I'm feeling really uh like frustrated, I feel tension in my chest. When I feel guilty, it's a pit in my stomach. And so what's so cool about having that awareness is then you get you have more tools to work with it, right? If I when I feel stressed, my back gets really tight. Well, I can work on being less stressed. I can also like massage my back because it's working that's making me more stressed. And so um it can go go both ways. So I think that there's that. I'll also say, in terms of like emotional awareness, there's some great apps out there. So how we feel is a really good one where they took a bunch of the you know big emotion researchers. It's free, it's backed by research, it gives you a little check-in, it defines different emotions, you can journal about it. And so I think just you gotta be able to be willing to pause and reflect. And that might be for one minute, or it might be once a month in a session, and that's that's valuable, right? Or maybe you do have a more formal practice where you're stretching or doing yoga or something like that as a way to pause and check in with your mind and body.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Do you find certain meditations? You said a muscle, progressive muscle uh relaxation technique. Is that like um I'm I'm imagining like Yoga Nidra? I don't know if you're familiar, but they go through like a body scan.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Is it like that, like a guided?

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yeah, it's like that where you're you're going through kind of yeah, different parts of your body and squeeze and release um as a way to just kind of have those felt sensations with with a little intentionality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Okay. You're from Utah, you said?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

I'm from Utah originally, yep.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Are you familiar with Kale Sanderson? By chance.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

So he is the most winningest wrestler. So I wrestled. Um he's never lost a match in college, the only one to ever do it. Um yeah. And he coaches for Penn State. Penn State's on their 19th national championship or something, D1. And I mean they're beating people by double their score. They're incredible. Yeah, incredible. Um and it's sport where I think that one specifically uh is coded masculine. It is interesting to hear the philosophy that they're using over at Penn State um to push on the fun button to make it fun again. I mean, it seems easy to say when you're kicking everyone's ass, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

That might be why they're kicking everyone's ass.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah, totally. And uh, you know, he's one of the best. And uh Kyle Dake is a guy who went over their Olympics bronze medalist to work with them. Um, but same thing. He's always saying you gotta make it fun. Um, it's a long uh grueling season. Um with a sport where there's so much grind, it's hard to find the fun. And um, there's even been some folks who've done documentaries on wrestlers like that, and they've said, Oh, you can come film me, but we're gonna play dodgeball. We're not gonna, you're not gonna see us working our technique right now, you know. Um first off, is there I there's a couple of things I want to to ask you with them, but um finding joy in your sport again and play, is there any benefit in uh being less lighthearted? And and and I'm curious what if you see trends with men or male athletes, if there's um involving that as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Definitely. Because the reason that we started playing sports is because it was fun, you know, and um if it just becomes a job, it's not that you can't do it, you know. There are lots of people who stay in jobs that they don't like and they make it work. Uh and if you want it to be sustainable, it you know, like I'm I'm all about this holistic well-being. And I think you know, many of us in this space are where sure we want top-performing athletes, but we want you to enjoy your life, right? We we want you to be happy and feel fulfilled. And if it's just a grind all the time, it's just not sustainable. You're gonna you're gonna burn out, right? If you're not refilling your tank, you're gonna run out of gas. And so um, I would say with both sports, you know, or or you know, all genders that that's really important. And the way that it might um show up might be a little bit different. Um, totally depends again on the sport and on the athletes. But I have a ton of guys who it's like they when they get too serious, they're like, oh great, I need to remember that I'm having fun with my friends, right? I get to train with my friends and it's a good time. And and you know, whether it's like it there's gotta be a little bit of this balance. I know for the coaches listening, they're like, Ashley, don't tell them to just goof off. We don't want that. Um, because we want to take things seriously, but it doesn't mean that it's gotta be like that all the time. And there's just, you know, balance in everything. And and some people, um, I will say this is especially important in team sports because there's some people who really, really need it to be lighthearted for it to be sustainable for them. And there's some who need it to be really, really competitive and serious for it to be sustainable for them. And then you put those two people on the same team and they can criticize each other like you don't even care about this, or you care so much, what's wrong with you? And there can be this battle where it's just different people with different personalities, and can we have some compassion and some understanding that what works for you might not work for me? And I will say that is a challenge on it on a team sport in particular, or even the individual sports, you know, I'm thinking of like track or swimming where they have like 60 individual athletes, they're all a little different. So um I think there's just room in sports for learning about communication, learning about each other. Can we be a little more understanding and kind and recognize that we're doing the best we can? And what's fun for one person might be a little less fun for someone else.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Um, yeah, there's a guy on their team in Penn State who is the best in the world right now. And there's this small window, we think, of age range where you've got this chance to be world champion and Olympic champion is the pinnacle of wrestling. And um, he's like, I'm gonna play music. I'm gonna, you know, he's beat everyone, he's won the Heisman Trophy for wrestling. Um, it's called the um gosh, I forget the name of the award. But at any rate, best in collegiate um wrestling and and in the world likely, but that world tournament had its uh qualifier, and he just said, you know, I'm just burnt out, you know, I just don't want to do it right now. And uh yeah, I give their coach credit. I think he's given them grace to say, yeah, you do you, you know. This isn't he says it all the time. Again, I think it's maybe easy to say when you're winning all the time, like by a lot. Um, but he's said, no, this isn't our life. There's way more to to us than this sport. But yeah, um, maybe just articulating that. Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

No, no, no. No, I was just gonna say, like sometimes we have to take a step back to go forward, you know. And and you know, there's I just saw a post on Instagram that had a list of athletes who had taken a break from their sport and came back way stronger. And um, you know, sometimes even if you think about I've got a colleague that I work with where it's like different motions of like If you're shooting a bow and arrow, if you're using a hammer, if you're throwing a paper airplane, you you always go backwards to go forward, right? That you have the most power in that way. And so sometimes taking a break is the best thing you can do. Sometimes it's not, right? It totally depends on the situation. And you got to be considering the short-term benefits and the long-term benefits to really know what to do. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned how every individual might uh handle the level of competition or play and fun differently and perform better based on their individual needs mentally, emotionally, physically. When it comes to individuality and um thinking of faith, and there's all you always hear athletes, no, thank, thank God, or thank, you know, um Jesus, and um, especially in wrestling and thinking again, Penn State, you know, they've been very outward about their faith of the whole team and together and um praying together, and even to the point where they've had certain athletes on the team say, hey, they want us to thank God. They told us to thank God in our interviews first. And that's you got to make sure you do that. Um is there a space do you think this is a healthy trend? Um, and I'm thinking of folks who are of different faiths and uh religions where uh you have a kid that maybe is entering in college and they are not Christian or Catholic, and you know, the best teams in the world are saying, you know, you've got to be that. You find this how do you handle that? Or what's your thoughts on that? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Yeah, I think it's a great question because in on one sense, it's creating a sense of community for people who are of that same faith. It can be really um building for them. And in some ways, it could be a little exclusive where someone who really wants to compete at a really high level, but then has to decide. And I think it that it does, you know, come down to the individual. I said I grew up in Utah, and so I grew up LDS, I'm no longer, but that school BYU is right there, which is you know an LDS school, and it's like you know what you're getting into. If it's I was if it started that way, and so it might be different if you, you know, you started at Penn State and then they're making this shift, you know, you got to kind of decide what's best for you. Is this something that you want to engage in, or is it something that's a deal breaker for you and you would rather play at a different um or compete at a different place? And I think it's just that's just important, I think, for athletes in general when they're figuring out if they're going to college where they want to play. There's so many factors to consider. There's location and weather and the type of coach and the type of training. And one, you don't know it all ahead of time, right? And so it's kind of like doing your homework, but but weighing out the options of what matters the most to you and what can you sacrifice. And um, I think it goes into that situation that we were talking about earlier of is this something you can cope with and still thrive? Or is it something that you're like, this is actually not working for me, and my coaches aren't understanding where I'm coming from, and this is making it really hard for me to compete. Maybe I need to go somewhere else. So um, yeah, like I said, I I don't think that anyone should be forced to do anything. I will say that. Um, I would think that there would be it would be nice to have some options, and if they are that is the expectation, then it needs to be really clear and upfront and and some understanding for the athlete's individual choices.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Yeah, it's it's just I think it's tricky when you find yourself, like you said, I guess sometimes you don't know until you're in it, or when most of the team is doing a certain thing, it's hard to push against that culture and the team.

unknown 48:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Um yeah. Do you do you find folks are are more receptive to um working with you or working with the mental performance coach now more than ever? Um, I think a lot of athletes have been pretty outwardly outspoken about their mental health and their mental game. Um do you think it's trending in a positive way where athletes are more receptive and maybe even at a younger age?

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah, definitely. I think um I think there's still a lot of barriers to be overcome. And it's definitely trending in in a positive way. I mean, we've seen this even generally in psychology, where it used to be, you know, this psychopathology of like you have problems and we need to fix you. And then there was this positive psychology movement of like, wait a second, maybe understanding our brains and motivation is really valuable, and this can be a good thing. And I think we're seeing that in the sports realm as well, where where again it was maybe just like, and and like I even experienced this. I I was studying psychology, taking counseling classes, practicing with my classmates, being like, This is awesome, but I'm never gonna go to therapy because I'm not crazy. And I was like, I'm studying it, and so even for me, uh you know, I've experienced that. And then the first time I went to therapy, I was like, I hope no one sees me. I was like hiding, I was scared. Is my mom isn't gonna show up on the insurance statement? She's gonna think something's wrong with me, even though I'm like experiencing it in class and thinking it's amazing. And so I think um if if someone studying psychology is experiencing those barriers, someone not studying psychology is also gonna experience some of that. So there's for sure still stigma, but it is amazing to see so many athletes speaking out at all levels, and um there's there's definitely a trend in that way. And but once the athlete, I think, gets over the barrier and tries it out, they are much more likely to show up again. But we gotta acknowledge that there is still barriers, it's still scary, there's still probably some feelings of something's wrong with me, and so it's just like we gotta keep the conversation, we gotta be vulnerable and keep sharing, you know. Like I go to therapy and I think it's awesome, right? And it's like coaches need coaches, and and um, it's gonna keep going in that direction, I think.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Okay, and you think articulating it as like a mental performance is helpful when it comes to athletes, and also um I've heard, like you said, you don't necessarily need to have something wrong to go see, go to a therapist, though I don't I have heard coaches have success articulating that, like, hey, when you get a sprained ankle or you hurt your knee, you don't just like not go to the PT or the the doctor, right? So like if you're struggling with something in the mental game, it's like you have a mental he says injury, but I think it kind of lands maybe for certain people, like you it's kind of paralleling the two. Um, I think it's helpful to frame it that way for athletes sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Yeah, totally. Because it could be, I mean, if you think about you know the support teams that we have around athletes, you you've got PT, which is again gonna be kind of like when you have an injury, but you also have strength and conditioning. You go to the weight room. So that is building up your resources, and it's the same. There are some times, you know, where uh you know someone's working with a mental performance coach because they're really, really struggling and they want to figure out how to make it better. There's other times where they're like, I think I'm doing pretty good, but I know that I can be better and I know I could be more focused, or I know I could work on this. And so it it works at both ends and both are advantageous. And I think uh just like you said, the more that coaches are talking about it is gonna help the athletes feel like it's okay. The more we normalize it, that it's both strength and conditioning and physical therapy, you know, for our mindset, the better it's gonna be. And the more that coaches are willing to expose their athletes to it, like in a in a group workshop, right? I can work with a whole team. It's very much, you know, helping them develop some of these skills is gonna make them more likely to show up in a one-on-one session with me.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Great. Um I wanted to ask you about uh the direction of sports in general. And at a younger age, it seems as if we've uh focused in on more club sports, travel sports, a real the athletic did a great piece on the diminishment of uh community-based sports in a scholastic capacity, where even when I was in school, you know, we were doing more of these clubs, but our end goal was like state championship for the school. What uh you feel as if we've made sports pay to play more and uh really kind of made accessibility to those who could afford it. And um this kind of maybe probably trickles into opportunities for university and education. What are your thoughts in general on the direction of sports and its uh accessibility?

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah, I mean, I think in the US for sure. I don't know about outside the US, but I think that uh, you know, what I'm hearing from parents is there is that expectation that they're starting earlier and by nine years old they're going to strengthen conditioning and also mental performance. You know, there's there's this um concern about if they don't specialize early, then they're not gonna play later, which all the research says don't specialize early, right? Play lots of sports, right? And it's good for your body, it's good for your mind. And so yeah, I think I think for sure it is limiting access to people, and um we'll see what happens with it. I you know, I think I know there are still grassroots programs and and trying to keep some of these community programs going. And in terms of the the clubs, the high school, the college, that's unfortunately the reality of the world that we live in, is that money talks, and yes, it can um a lot of kids can get missed because they don't have that. And um, a lot of kids aren't getting the opportunities, you know, at those younger ages because they don't have the financial support to do all this extra stuff. So um yeah, hopefully there are people out there who are still just going outside and playing and having a good time. And um yeah, it is an unfortunate reality of the society we live in.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Ashley, uh, is there anything else that you want to put out there for folks or anything we didn't cover that you want to um put out there?

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Um the last thing I want to say, this is honor of a good family friend who just passed away. He would always end every conversation with keep smiling. And I've thought about that a lot recently. That in our kind of like tying everything together, keep sports fun, just keep smiling. You have a setback, I'm thinking like Steph Curry, right? He's just like smiling all the time. And remember why you started your sport, keep it playful if you're going through injury. That's that's a a challenging thing too. Like, can you find ways to keep smiling and doing the things that you love and connecting with the people who you care about and who care about you? And I really do think that is such a simple and beautiful way to practice compassion for yourself and others, is to just kind of like be a light and keep smiling.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

I love that. It's a wonderful way to tie this uh conversation up. I learned a lot, Ashley. Thanks so much for explaining things in a way we could all understand and benefit from. Um, it means a lot to have you uh to educate us and to talk to us. And so um appreciate your time. Um you're are you based in California?

SPEAKER_01 56:12

Like I'm in I'm in Austin actually.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Oh, you're in Austin still. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

Yep, yep. So I'm in Austin. Um, travel kind of all over for work. I do a ton of stuff virtually. So most of my individual sessions are virtual, but yeah, I'm based here in Austin.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Okay. If folks are interested in in working with you or want to refer someone to you, is there someplace that they could find you that we could point them to?

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Yeah. Uh website failbettertraining.com. It's got all the socials and other connections, courses, and things that that I've got going on. And yeah, we'll love. Feel free to connect. You know, people can send me an email or or book a discovery call and we can just chat and make sure it's good fit.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Beautiful. Ashley, well, thanks so much for your time again. And uh, I'd love to chat again sometime. This is really great.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Yeah, thanks, Jake. I appreciate it. It's been great conversation. I appreciate you having me on.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

My pleasure. All right, take care.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Take care. See ya.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Thanks for tuning in. If you found my conversation with Ashley to be informative, interesting, if it got you thinking, please give the podcast a like, write a review on Apple Podcasts, and share the podcast with everyone you know. You can find me on all social media platforms, especially Instagram at YogaWith Jake, and at my website, yoga withjake.com. Until next time, take care.